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Ferrari/Binotto are pretty clear of fighting for the title next year, not P3. Their PU, especially the ICE, will be completely new and that's been known for more than a year now. They've been working on the PU day in day out and will continue doing so.
There has never been serious talk of a split turbo and I highly doubt they will go for it. It would not make any sense as it's a design which Mercedes have innnovated to the limits for several years already. Ferrari's goal is not only to close the gap, but also possibly surpass everyone which they could not achieve with the split turbo.
As the ICE, TC, MGU-H, fuel and engine oil will be homologated with 1st of March 2022 and MGU-K, ES and CE with 1st of September 2022, they more or less will have one shot and they surely won't go for a design which others are so much more experienced with as they won't even have the possibility to improve it due to the homologation.
Ferrari will come up with innovations on the PU side. And let's leave it to the experts doing the actual job instead of using figures like 10% turbo efficiency they would never achieve as you assumed.
The 10% comes from a real expert not from myself. This number you can get from interviews with Prof. Fritz Indra, maybe the best source on turbocharging in reality.
He clearly said that a competitive engine without split turbo is impossible by simple rules of engineering.
By the way: Fritz Indra is the person who works as an advisor with AVL in every core project, especially racing engines. And AVL is the company helping Ferrari to build the 2022 engine.
Can you please give me a link to his interview? Would be interesting to read his opinion.
As for the suggestion that it’s impossible to build a competitive engine without a split turbo design, well, that’s a pretty strong one. Remember when Honda dominated on high altitudes with their edge on turbo side in the last couple of years when at the same time Mercedes still had the most powerful PU overall.
Another example is that Ferrari already after their upgrade on the hybrid part this season began to be quite competitive. I’ve not seen a major power difference anymore and that’s with the rest of the PU still being on 2020 hardware. There even is a quote from Andreas Seidl saying that the Ferraris now can boost from the beginning to the end of the straights and as an example of that Perez despite DRS was not able to come close to Sainz in the sprint race of Interlagos.
I think it's about this video, 26:04. Thanks google there is a translation of subtitles : )
an example of the split turbo mistery is this article https://hackaday.com/2021/04/06/mercede ... formula-1/
all the reported advantages are not major ones and above all (except possibly the air temperature) they can be achieved also with alternative approaches.
besides, beyond the reliability issue (that can be overcome) cited in the article there is also a performance issue (intrinsic) related to the massively increased inertia of the shaft.
To cite Clint Eastwood I would say that this split turbo thing is overrated.
If mercedes went that way for sure it is a good way but I doubt that this is THE WAY.
When merceds engine was really dominant it was because of oil burning. After oil burning years it is a very good engine maybe the best one but for a matter of few CV that could be possibly digged in several different ways
Leclerc disappointed a lot tho. Lots of talent, but his mind game is nowhere. Also from what little i could gather, he isn't really a good car developer. Or atleast he wasn't. End of 2021 I'm not so sure, hopefully he learns. Cuz however good CS's season has been, Carlos can never be champion with max, lewis or even russell in the field. So no point in taking the car direction there, else Ferrari will be left as a joke once again.
What an absurd statement for F1, where driver is just a small fraction of the equation
Not only Carlos can be champion with those big drivers in the field, same as Rosberg, Button or Kimi for example, he´s proven he can be a champion even with some highly rated driver as a teammate
I probably would never choose him if Lewis or Max, or even Russell are available, but apart from them, Carlos is becoming the next big thing in F1. Not as talented, but extremelly consistent, reliable, and a very good team player. Those characteristics bring a lot of points, and also titles if the team is at the necessary level
Leclerc disappointed a lot tho. Lots of talent, but his mind game is nowhere. Also from what little i could gather, he isn't really a good car developer. Or atleast he wasn't. End of 2021 I'm not so sure, hopefully he learns. Cuz however good CS's season has been, Carlos can never be champion with max, lewis or even russell in the field. So no point in taking the car direction there, else Ferrari will be left as a joke once again.
What an absurd statement for F1, where driver is just a small fraction of the equation
Not only Carlos can be champion with those big drivers in the field, same as Rosberg, Button or Kimi for example, he´s proven he can be a champion even with some highly rated driver as a teammate
I probably would never choose him if Lewis or Max, or even Russell are available, but apart from them, Carlos is becoming the next big thing in F1. Not as talented, but extremelly consistent, reliable, and a very good team player. Those characteristics bring a lot of points, and also titles if the team is at the necessary level
Please forgive my grammar if something is missing and some part of rude language.
I think its more of attitude of driver and attitude of team. Looking at Mercedes and Redbull, their team bosses barking like anything at every chance they get but Ferrari not showing any aggression not vocal even the drivers except sometimes leclerc. Toto thinks he owns F1, Merc and Lewis fans thinks they own F1 , safety car now, no safety car now, we are cheated and what not. Here at Ferrari we as fans also simply stay silent and does not make noise/barking.
Second part is the car and somehow team loyalty. This season was a definite improvement over the past year however we are no where near the straight line speed of Mercedes, I am damn sure Carlos can win in a Mercedes easily, look at bottas even after being this bad he finished 3rd very easily even when Mercedes sacrificed him like anything but he got pole as well.
Team loyalty i mentioned is because somehow i feel how 2019 all secrets FIA get to know? how teams were able to make complain so easily against Ferrari, Mercedes showed insane gains when Parelli changed compound, so why its that Ferrari secrets went out.
Hopefully next year car be good so our drivers can show their class.
Please forgive my grammar if something is missing and some part of rude language.
I think its more of attitude of driver and attitude of team. Looking at Mercedes and Redbull, their team bosses barking like anything at every chance they get but Ferrari not showing any aggression not vocal even the drivers except sometimes leclerc. Toto thinks he owns F1, Merc and Lewis fans thinks they own F1 , safety car now, no safety car now, we are cheated and what not. Here at Ferrari we as fans also simply stay silent and does not make noise/barking.
Second part is the car and somehow team loyalty. This season was a definite improvement over the past year however we are no where near the straight line speed of Mercedes, I am damn sure Carlos can win in a Mercedes easily, look at bottas even after being this bad he finished 3rd very easily even when Mercedes sacrificed him like anything but he got pole as well.
Team loyalty i mentioned is because somehow i feel how 2019 all secrets FIA get to know? how teams were able to make complain so easily against Ferrari, Mercedes showed insane gains when Parelli changed compound, so why its that Ferrari secrets went out.
Hopefully next year car be good so our drivers can show their class.
With he last year or so Ferrari has had, upper management keeping a lower and quiet profile is welcomed and needed. With the 2019 'deal' with the FIA and the fallout of that in 2020 amongst other things, the last thing Ferrari needed to do was boast and shout from the rooftops like Red Bull and Mercedes have been doing... anything that would've been said would've instantly been shot down and the 2019 'bending of the rules' saga would've quickly reared its head again.
As for Ferrari fans staying silent? Maybe on this forum, but in most other places, they're incredibly vocal about Ferrari not winning anything for the last 2 seasons... even the mass recovery this year has been for us, has been criticised heavily by those who call themselves 'tifosi'. At least most people here understand the big goal was for next year and this year was all about continuing to build the foundations for the long term, all in the hope to take the fight to the front properly and consistently.
The Mercedes/Pirelli situation is somewhat controversial, though that blame more so goes back to the tyre manufacture than Mercedes, since the variable is changed for all the teams and not been redesigned my Mercedes themselves. The question of the Power Unit on the Ferrari side however, is something that had been gaining traction for months and basically ended-up with most of the grid coming to the conclusion something questionable was going on... despite the FIA not directly being able trace it and Ferrari needing to come forward to prove what it was to them. It was well known that Ferrari had a weapon in the back, and it was going to be strong at places like Spa and Monza where they won... but then when they smacked everyone in Singapore with ridiculous pace on anything resembling a straight, that truly started rolling heads on the grid.
Final part with Charles... I put him in a similar position to where Max was a season or 2 ago... driving at the limit and at times, over it... combined with the fact he is a very emotional individual; He has massive highs and deep lows. If he dials it back a few percent and cuts out the mistakes, then I see something of a similar (... and nicer!) vibe to Max. Mind you, Ferrari hasn't exactly been in a position to be winning races convincingly and easily compared to Red Bull and Mercedes, so lets see if we've got the car next year to see what he (and Mr. Consistency Sainz) can do... properly.
It is SF90.. So interesting what engine do they use there.. For the latest one do they need to change packages? And is it allowed to use 2021 engine there? Is that monster 2019 engine allowed? Usually they use SF71H for tests
Please forgive my grammar if something is missing and some part of rude language.
I think its more of attitude of driver and attitude of team. Looking at Mercedes and Redbull, their team bosses barking like anything at every chance they get but Ferrari not showing any aggression not vocal even the drivers except sometimes leclerc. Toto thinks he owns F1, Merc and Lewis fans thinks they own F1 , safety car now, no safety car now, we are cheated and what not. Here at Ferrari we as fans also simply stay silent and does not make noise/barking.
Second part is the car and somehow team loyalty. This season was a definite improvement over the past year however we are no where near the straight line speed of Mercedes, I am damn sure Carlos can win in a Mercedes easily, look at bottas even after being this bad he finished 3rd very easily even when Mercedes sacrificed him like anything but he got pole as well.
Team loyalty i mentioned is because somehow i feel how 2019 all secrets FIA get to know? how teams were able to make complain so easily against Ferrari, Mercedes showed insane gains when Parelli changed compound, so why its that Ferrari secrets went out.
Hopefully next year car be good so our drivers can show their class.
The Mercedes/Pirelli situation is somewhat controversial, though that blame more so goes back to the tyre manufacture than Mercedes, since the variable is changed for all the teams and not been redesigned my Mercedes themselves. The question of the Power Unit on the Ferrari side however, is something that had been gaining traction for months and basically ended-up with most of the grid coming to the conclusion something questionable was going on... despite the FIA not directly being able trace it and Ferrari needing to come forward to prove what it was to them. It was well known that Ferrari had a weapon in the back, and it was going to be strong at places like Spa and Monza where they won... but then when they smacked everyone in Singapore with ridiculous pace on anything resembling a straight, that truly started rolling heads on the grid.
I can't figure out where this Singapore pace comes from as there's no straights, and Ferrari was really out of pace in Monaco ? Has someone got any explanation(s) ?
Can you please give me a link to his interview? Would be interesting to read his opinion.
I am hearing the youtube series "alte schule". Unfortunately you need to be very good in German as Fritz Indra speaks a strong Austrian German.
Here is one part:
There are more interviews where he speaks about the topic and in this one he also tells what he discussed with Lauda on this in the Hotel Imperial in Vienna.
As for the suggestion that it’s impossible to build a competitive engine without a split turbo design, well, that’s a pretty strong one.
The technical details are given in the interview. The reason is quite simple actually, but it is multiple points:
- Smaller clearing between impeller and turbo housing -> much better efficiency on both sides.
- H in the middle and not at the front -> H does not request a compromise on air flow.
- Heat at the back -> colder charged air
- Pipes are shorter -> better drivability
- Engine is smaller -> better aero
Andy Cowell did not get promoted into the royal academy without reason, that was brilliant.
And one can still say that most of the reason for RedBull to go to Honda was exactly this split turbo...as said above, Indra, Marko...
Remember when Honda dominated on high altitudes with their edge on turbo side in the last couple of years when at the same time Mercedes still had the most powerful PU overall.
Well, very hard to judge McLaren with Honda. In my point of view the first relevant progress with the PU and the good performance at high altitude was done with the split turbo after 2017.
Another example is that Ferrari already after their upgrade on the hybrid part this season began to be quite competitive. I’ve not seen a major power difference anymore and that’s with the rest of the PU still being on 2020 hardware. There even is a quote from Andreas Seidl saying that the Ferraris now can boost from the beginning to the end of the straights and as an example of that Perez despite DRS was not able to come close to Sainz in the sprint race of Interlagos.
I can not see Ferrari as being competitive, sorry. They just did not get lapped in Brazil with all the power they have because Hamilton took the pace down after overtaking Ver.
We are talking about power levels that are sufficient for a works team to play in Formula 1.5. From Formula 1 they are far away.
Currently we have four quasi works teams. The two with the split turbo are competing in Formula1 for the title. The two without the split turbo are playing with the non-works teams in F1.5....this is a clear sign for me and I strongly doubt this will change the next years.
Please forgive my grammar if something is missing and some part of rude language.
I think its more of attitude of driver and attitude of team. Looking at Mercedes and Redbull, their team bosses barking like anything at every chance they get but Ferrari not showing any aggression not vocal even the drivers except sometimes leclerc. Toto thinks he owns F1, Merc and Lewis fans thinks they own F1 , safety car now, no safety car now, we are cheated and what not. Here at Ferrari we as fans also simply stay silent and does not make noise/barking.
Second part is the car and somehow team loyalty. This season was a definite improvement over the past year however we are no where near the straight line speed of Mercedes, I am damn sure Carlos can win in a Mercedes easily, look at bottas even after being this bad he finished 3rd very easily even when Mercedes sacrificed him like anything but he got pole as well.
Team loyalty i mentioned is because somehow i feel how 2019 all secrets FIA get to know? how teams were able to make complain so easily against Ferrari, Mercedes showed insane gains when Parelli changed compound, so why its that Ferrari secrets went out.
Hopefully next year car be good so our drivers can show their class.
The Mercedes/Pirelli situation is somewhat controversial, though that blame more so goes back to the tyre manufacture than Mercedes, since the variable is changed for all the teams and not been redesigned my Mercedes themselves. The question of the Power Unit on the Ferrari side however, is something that had been gaining traction for months and basically ended-up with most of the grid coming to the conclusion something questionable was going on... despite the FIA not directly being able trace it and Ferrari needing to come forward to prove what it was to them. It was well known that Ferrari had a weapon in the back, and it was going to be strong at places like Spa and Monza where they won... but then when they smacked everyone in Singapore with ridiculous pace on anything resembling a straight, that truly started rolling heads on the grid.
I can't figure out where this Singapore pace comes from as there's no straights, and Ferrari was really out of pace in Monaco ? Has someone got any explanation(s) ?
Also here some history:
Why is Ferrari so quiet? Well....Ferrari was not quiet in 2015 until they got a high class engineer trades from Mercedes with a hand shake agreement between Zetsche and Marchionne to stay quiet. They simply could not use this and went into the wrong direction as they did not change to the split turbo once the token system was lifted, but played with fuel flow tricks.
Why did they win in Singapore:
Singapore is just like Brazil a super power hungry track as you need as much downforce as possible without being slow on the straights. They simply bolted all downforce they had, went for a qualy setup and turned up the fuel flow. The race was about going slow...reminded of the first win at Monaco by Rosberg.
The Mercedes/Pirelli situation is somewhat controversial, though that blame more so goes back to the tyre manufacture than Mercedes, since the variable is changed for all the teams and not been redesigned my Mercedes themselves. The question of the Power Unit on the Ferrari side however, is something that had been gaining traction for months and basically ended-up with most of the grid coming to the conclusion something questionable was going on... despite the FIA not directly being able trace it and Ferrari needing to come forward to prove what it was to them. It was well known that Ferrari had a weapon in the back, and it was going to be strong at places like Spa and Monza where they won... but then when they smacked everyone in Singapore with ridiculous pace on anything resembling a straight, that truly started rolling heads on the grid.
I can't figure out where this Singapore pace comes from as there's no straights, and Ferrari was really out of pace in Monaco ? Has someone got any explanation(s) ?
Also here some history:
Why is Ferrari so quiet? Well....Ferrari was not quiet in 2015 until they got a high class engineer trades from Mercedes with a hand shake agreement between Zetsche and Marchionne to stay quiet. They simply could not use this and went into the wrong direction as they did not change to the split turbo once the token system was lifted, but played with fuel flow tricks.
Why did they win in Singapore:
Singapore is just like Brazil a super power hungry track as you need as much downforce as possible without being slow on the straights. They simply bolted all downforce they had, went for a qualy setup and turned up the fuel flow. The race was about going slow...reminded of the first win at Monaco by Rosberg.
I agree with you for the track spec nevertheless you need a very good traction, the Ferrari was mighty on fast traks but not on tricky-slow corners tracks.
Yes, I can remember Leclerc going very slow when he was leading, the leaders were pretty close to the midfield, even when the first pit window opened.
I can't figure out where this Singapore pace comes from as there's no straights, and Ferrari was really out of pace in Monaco ? Has someone got any explanation(s) ?
Also here some history:
Why is Ferrari so quiet? Well....Ferrari was not quiet in 2015 until they got a high class engineer trades from Mercedes with a hand shake agreement between Zetsche and Marchionne to stay quiet. They simply could not use this and went into the wrong direction as they did not change to the split turbo once the token system was lifted, but played with fuel flow tricks.
Why did they win in Singapore:
Singapore is just like Brazil a super power hungry track as you need as much downforce as possible without being slow on the straights. They simply bolted all downforce they had, went for a qualy setup and turned up the fuel flow. The race was about going slow...reminded of the first win at Monaco by Rosberg.
I agree with you for the track spec nevertheless you need a very good traction, the Ferrari was mighty on fast traks but not on tricky-slow corners tracks.
Yes, I can remember Leclerc going very slow when he was leading, the leaders were pretty close to the midfield, even when the first pit window opened.
I do not think you can make that judgement for 2019. The car was difficult, only one driver got it right...that was a big up and down. As they were also on the podium at Monaco, I do not see a reason why they should not be good a Spore if the engine has some power.
The Mercedes/Pirelli situation is somewhat controversial, though that blame more so goes back to the tyre manufacture than Mercedes, since the variable is changed for all the teams and not been redesigned my Mercedes themselves. The question of the Power Unit on the Ferrari side however, is something that had been gaining traction for months and basically ended-up with most of the grid coming to the conclusion something questionable was going on... despite the FIA not directly being able trace it and Ferrari needing to come forward to prove what it was to them. It was well known that Ferrari had a weapon in the back, and it was going to be strong at places like Spa and Monza where they won... but then when they smacked everyone in Singapore with ridiculous pace on anything resembling a straight, that truly started rolling heads on the grid.
I can't figure out where this Singapore pace comes from as there's no straights, and Ferrari was really out of pace in Monaco ? Has someone got any explanation(s) ?
Also here some history: Why is Ferrari so quiet? Well....Ferrari was not quiet in 2015 until they got a high class engineer trades from Mercedes with a hand shake agreement between Zetsche and Marchionne to stay quiet. They simply could not use this and went into the wrong direction as they did not change to the split turbo once the token system was lifted, but played with fuel flow tricks.
What do you mean?
WHAT happened in 2015? I don't know anything about this story!
Why did they win in Singapore:
Singapore is just like Brazil a super power hungry track as you need as much downforce as possible without being slow on the straights. They simply bolted all downforce they had, went for a qualy setup and turned up the fuel flow. The race was about going slow...reminded of the first win at Monaco by Rosberg.
I agree with you for the track spec nevertheless you need a very good traction, the Ferrari was mighty on fast traks but not on tricky-slow corners tracks.
Yes, I can remember Leclerc going very slow when he was leading, the leaders were pretty close to the midfield, even when the first pit window opened.
I do not think you can make that judgement for 2019. The car was difficult, only one driver got it right...that was a big up and down. As they were also on the podium at Monaco, I do not see a reason why they should not be good a Spore if the engine has some power.
My point being Mercedes was fast but no investigation necessary, they bring DAS and nothing happened, multiple incidents that happen on track by their drivers and they get minor penalties right till the last race where Lewis cut corner and does not give position back while max has to in Saudi for doing same (not that it matters now). It clearly shows the more vocal and aggressive the team is the more privilege's they get.
Hopefully next year brings some good news for us, New engine but Aero is a concern with such major changes. Adrian Newey is still the king of Aero but if we can somehow match Aero and have a better engine then next year will be fun.
I can't figure out where this Singapore pace comes from as there's no straights, and Ferrari was really out of pace in Monaco ? Has someone got any explanation(s) ?
Also here some history: Why is Ferrari so quiet? Well....Ferrari was not quiet in 2015 until they got a high class engineer trades from Mercedes with a hand shake agreement between Zetsche and Marchionne to stay quiet. They simply could not use this and went into the wrong direction as they did not change to the split turbo once the token system was lifted, but played with fuel flow tricks.
What do you mean?
WHAT happened in 2015? I don't know anything about this story!
Puuuhhhh....long story:
It started 2014. After the first race Merc knew that they win everything and Renault, Ferrari knew that they are screwed. It was obvious that the split turbo works and due to the conceptual differences it has a big benefit. The issue was, that due to the token system Ferrari and Renault were simply not allowed to change to this solution even if they tried.
You can, of course, imagine the background noise that started but was never going public until 2015. It was basically as if Merc turned up with a Diesel engine and Ferrari and Renault were like locked on Petrol with less energy density.
I never understood, why there is no BOP between the concepts if they are locked by the rules...but maybe this was something Ferrari was lobbying for.
Marchionne and Zetsche were "friends" or at least well connected. This lead to turning down all Hamilton moving rumors and it led to Merc trading core engine personal (Zimmermann) to Ferrari to calm them down and pretend they get a chance.
But the only thing that came out were most probably some tricks that got disallowed at Merc (compliance!), because they still did not go for the split turbo in 2017. Ferrari just had to make up for the efficiency deficit on the turbo with other tricks.
Wolf Zimmermann is now the connecting person from AVL to Ferrari for the 2022 engine.
In short what should have happend:
Instead of the fuel trick we saw with Ferrari, the FIA should have and would have in any other series introduced a sort of BOP. Means something like 2% less fuel flow for the split turbo. But now we see for years a situation like in LeMans when Audi turned up with a Diesel engine...
