Funny how all the button bashers have gone quiet.

[xpensive]

Obviously, it is difficult to judge a driver in a car with an illegal diffuser, just as it was in last year's shitbox.

[donskar]

spencifer_murphy wrote;

Button has proven he can race well and drive quickly. And while I admit he isn't as fast ultimately as say Lewis, Kimi or Fernando, he is a bloody good driver, with an excelent driving technique.

I'll buy that: a good, not great driver, in an excellent car, can beat (slightly) better drivers in far slightly slower cars.

I recall a few drivers who could win with a slightly inferior car: Schumacher, Prost, Senna (possibly?), Jim Clark. Today I think only Alonso can do it.

[kilcoo316]

There have been some brilliant drivers who looked fairly average until they got in a decent car when they suddenly proved how good they were (Hakkinen is an excellent example - always seemed ok but nothing that special until McLaren gave him the right car)

No. I don't agree with that.

I would reword it to "there have been a number of good drivers that were flattered by their car and made to look brilliant."

I don't agree with this re-writing of history that Hakkinen was a great driver. He never performed beyond the car.


In my whole life of viewing F1, there has only been three potential candidiates for being called great drivers. Prost, Schumacher and Senna... and I'm not 100% sure about Prost.

[Note: That is MY viewing - older people will have seen more and will surely add to this]


Alonso is the closest of the current bunch, but he is still a signficant way off. For instance, where was he yesterday in the rain? You can bet your ass Schumacher would have put himself there or thereabouts by hook or by crook.


The term "great" is banded about far too often IMO. There doesn't even have to be a great driver in any given generation. So far, there are no real standouts.

[Sawtooth-spike]

Obviously, it is difficult to judge a driver in a car with an illegal diffuser, just as it was in last year's shitbox.

Wow, you been time Traveling? do you know the outcome before the rest of us?

Its Legal at the moment. We will soon know if its staying that way.

Good Driver, good car and he is given a chance to prove to us all how good he really is. Nuff said.

[ben_watkins]

It's also interesting that all the Ferrari fanbois are also quiet at the moment..

If you were to follow the "it's just the car" argument and apply it to Ferrari's last few races, you'd get all sorts of jibes at Kimi and Massa..

There you have two very fast drivers in a car which isn't as good a car as Ferrari have produced in recent years. Are they extracting more from the car than it's capable of? I'm not sure.

I'd like to have seen what Kimi and Massa could have done in an 07 and 08 Honda!

[xpensive]

Don't need to step into manure to know I'm on a horse-trail, Sawtooth.

[De Jokke]

I find it quite funny many people are saying "its just the car". How do you know Lewis is really that good? Maybe "its just the car"? (no offense to the Hamilton's fan. I have nothing against him im just making an example) I'm sick of people making the its just the car comment. Schumi wouldnt have won 7 championship if the car weren't good enough. And i doubt Senna would won a race in the RA107/RA108. And lets not forget Button was once the youngest point scorer in F1, and the record was only broken by the highly praised Vettel. And Button was setting fastest lap after fastest lap in Hungary and was right on Alonso's tail before Alonso has pitted and crashed.

I dont know whether Button is as good as Alonso or Schumi. In fact no one knows because Button NEVER got the right car to prove it to the world. Lets not forget we are only one and a half race into the 2009 season, and people are already making conclusions about Button. I know im a Button fan so im a bit biased, but i believe Button's performances in Australia and Malaysia deserves some recognition.

I know one thing, hamilton proved himself twice with a BAD car (last two races, he got points every time). Button with his BAD honda, couldn't...
Button got lucky the last two races (kubica, glock) . I rest my case

[RacingManiac]

This diamond in the rough has been obscured by the dirty covering of two year's worth of underperforming cars. Finally, he's got a car good enough to display his abilities, and has done very well. Of course, each and every driver worthy of consideration for F1 is darn good, much better than almost everyone else. So just to be in such company speaks well of his abilities.
It can be argued if even right now it's him or the car, but compared to his teammate, he's done much better. And for anyone to win a Grand Prix, it's a very special accomplishment, something very few mortals realize. You have to be very good to win, and even better to win when things aren't going perfectly. Yesterday was a very good example, with many opportunities to screw up. But Button and his team kept their heads, and made the correct decisions.
While I was watching the last two races, Button's control of the race reminded me of Michael Schumacher. There was a lot of similarities between the two. Just like Michael, he took the better car to the pole, as he was supposed to do. And during the race, he stayed on top of the car and tires, and managed everything properly. A well done, professional job.
Let's face it, a really crappy car like the Honda of '07 and '08 would make anyone look bad. But when finally given a respectable ride, he maximizes the car as he well should.

You are expected to do well if you have a good car, and Button did the job that was expected of him, and that no one can take away from him. But to my view the problem with Button is that when he had a bad car, he was not motivated to do well. While yes its hard for anyone to be motivated in that position, but the "greats" still try and give it their all. Look at Michael in 2005 or any of the Ferrari pre-1999 or Bennetton pre-1994. There are races in the last 2 seasons where you can tell he was just not trying as hard as he could have,IMO. And that takes away some points for me about Button.

[freedom_honda]

I find it quite funny many people are saying "its just the car". How do you know Lewis is really that good? Maybe "its just the car"? (no offense to the Hamilton's fan. I have nothing against him im just making an example) I'm sick of people making the its just the car comment. Schumi wouldnt have won 7 championship if the car weren't good enough. And i doubt Senna would won a race in the RA107/RA108. And lets not forget Button was once the youngest point scorer in F1, and the record was only broken by the highly praised Vettel. And Button was setting fastest lap after fastest lap in Hungary and was right on Alonso's tail before Alonso has pitted and crashed.

I dont know whether Button is as good as Alonso or Schumi. In fact no one knows because Button NEVER got the right car to prove it to the world. Lets not forget we are only one and a half race into the 2009 season, and people are already making conclusions about Button. I know im a Button fan so im a bit biased, but i believe Button's performances in Australia and Malaysia deserves some recognition.

I know one thing, hamilton proved himself twice with a BAD car (last two races, he got points every time). Button with his BAD honda, couldn't...
Button got lucky the last two races (kubica, glock) . I rest my case

I'm sorry but i doubt MP4-24 is as bad as RA107/RA108. And how did Button got lucky in the first two races? Kubica would NOT win the race even if Vettel let him pass. Kubica's laptime was not as fast as BMW claimed. And if you define lucky as having the right strategy and being on the right tyres at the right time, then yeah Button was EXTREMELY lucky.

[freedom_honda]

This diamond in the rough has been obscured by the dirty covering of two year's worth of underperforming cars. Finally, he's got a car good enough to display his abilities, and has done very well. Of course, each and every driver worthy of consideration for F1 is darn good, much better than almost everyone else. So just to be in such company speaks well of his abilities.
It can be argued if even right now it's him or the car, but compared to his teammate, he's done much better. And for anyone to win a Grand Prix, it's a very special accomplishment, something very few mortals realize. You have to be very good to win, and even better to win when things aren't going perfectly. Yesterday was a very good example, with many opportunities to screw up. But Button and his team kept their heads, and made the correct decisions.
While I was watching the last two races, Button's control of the race reminded me of Michael Schumacher. There was a lot of similarities between the two. Just like Michael, he took the better car to the pole, as he was supposed to do. And during the race, he stayed on top of the car and tires, and managed everything properly. A well done, professional job.
Let's face it, a really crappy car like the Honda of '07 and '08 would make anyone look bad. But when finally given a respectable ride, he maximizes the car as he well should.

You are expected to do well if you have a good car, and Button did the job that was expected of him, and that no one can take away from him. But to my view the problem with Button is that when he had a bad car, he was not motivated to do well. While yes its hard for anyone to be motivated in that position, but the "greats" still try and give it their all. Look at Michael in 2005 or any of the Ferrari pre-1999 or Bennetton pre-1994. There are races in the last 2 seasons where you can tell he was just not trying as hard as he could have,IMO. And that takes away some points for me about Button.

Again, how do you know Button was not motivated? Honda stopped development on the RA108 very early, and Button had some problems with the brakes throughout the season. The brakes suitted Barrichello more on the RA108, which explains the better results that Rubens had last year. As for 2007, it was obvious that Button was pushing the RA107 to the limit by scoring some decent points in various races.

[kilcoo316]

and Button had some problems with the brakes throughout the season. The brakes suitted Barrichello more on the RA108, which explains the better results that Rubens had last year.

Adapt.

Its what separates the very good from the good.


Note - A very good driver is still not a great driver.

[Giblet]

Whatever you want to say about Jenson, he stuck by his failing team, always talked them up no matter how bad they were doing, and helped keep morale up when times were really tough.

He kept _faith_ in is team, unwavering.

Turns out he was right and his team was capable of doing something great. Brawn was a catalyst but the people were mostly in place.

[freedom_honda]

McLaren had to change the brake supplier when Alonso joined McLaren because Alonso didnt like the brakes McLaren had before. Maybe Alonso isn't such a good driver after all?

[Giblet]

and Button had some problems with the brakes throughout the season. The brakes suitted Barrichello more on the RA108, which explains the better results that Rubens had last year.

Adapt.

Its what separates the very good from the good.


Note - A very good driver is still not a great driver.

Alonso is considered the best adaptive driver on the grid by most, but he couldn't use the same brakes as Hamilton when he came to Mclaren.

A truly good driver knows what he needs to make himself fast, and doesn't want o f around with other bs.

[kilcoo316]

Whatever you want to say about Jenson, he stuck by his failing team

Really?

Like when he tried to jump to Williams?