Funny how all the button bashers have gone quiet.

[kilcoo316]

McLaren had to change the brake supplier when Alonso joined McLaren because Alonso didnt like the brakes McLaren had before. Maybe Alonso isn't such a good driver after all?

Have I said Alonso is a great driver?

Did you not notice my post earlier? Here is the relevant bit again about the current crop being great drivers:

Alonso is the closest of the current bunch, but he is still a signficant way off. For instance, where was he yesterday in the rain? You can bet your ass Schumacher would have put himself there or thereabouts by hook or by crook.

[Giblet]

McLaren had to change the brake supplier when Alonso joined McLaren because Alonso didnt like the brakes McLaren had before. Maybe Alonso isn't such a good driver after all?

Have I said Alonso is a great driver?

Did you not notice my post earlier? Here is the relevant bit again about the current crop being great drivers:

Alonso is the closest of the current bunch, but he is still a signficant way off. For instance, where was he yesterday in the rain? You can bet your ass Schumacher would have put himself there or thereabouts by hook or by crook.

No I didn't read it, cuz forum lurkers are hard to beat to the punch.

Your message posted Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:33 am
my message posted Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:34 am

[Giblet]

Whatever you want to say about Jenson, he stuck by his failing team

Really?

Like when he tried to jump to Williams?

He realzied he made a mistake, sort of liek leaving a GF you love in a fit of anger, and wanteing her back.

He got a HUGE financial hit to stay with them.

[kilcoo316]

No I didn't read it, cuz forum lurkers are hard to beat to the punch.

Your message posted Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:33 am
my message posted Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:34 am

Your timing is somewhat suspect.


Your post: Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:34 pm


My initial post concerning Alonso's "greatness": Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:19 pm

Over an hour.

[enkidu]

Still so much button bashing my god...

I'd like to point out a few things from some of the posts above...

Illegal diffuser - Firstly its not illegal secondly Toyota and Williams seem to have a higher middle section than brawn so must be producing more downforce. He still beat them with those 2 superb laps.

Button had a poor start, the clutch on the brawn does not seem to be very good as he's team mate suffered same issues. But Barrichello was right up there behind him at first/second corner. Button overtook alonso, barrichello couldn't manage it.

Lets just see how the season unfolds, im sure your going to see more great driving especially when the setup of that brawn is better understood and its dialed in correctly at each race. Button said the car was terrible to drive in the wet but he still managed to pull enough time out of the laps to not be overtaken. Remembering he hardly makes mistakes because he's so smooth, catching and overtaking are 2 different things when you can place the car correctly on the trace making it wide as possible!


Also Button is my generation of driver, well he a year younger thats why I like him more than Hamilton but i'd love to see them both racing!!

[Giblet]

No I didn't read it, cuz forum lurkers are hard to beat to the punch.

Your message posted Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:33 am
my message posted Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:34 am

Your timing is somewhat suspect.


Your post: Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:34 pm


My initial post concerning Alonso's "greatness": Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:19 pm

Over an hour.

Don't start logistical bullshit with me.

You typed this "McLaren had to change the brake supplier when Alonso joined McLaren because Alonso didnt like the brakes McLaren had before. Maybe Alonso isn't such a good driver after all?


Last edited by freedom_honda on Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
at 7:33am.

at 7:34, I posted kilcoo316 wrote:
freedom_honda wrote:
and Button had some problems with the brakes throughout the season. The brakes suitted Barrichello more on the RA108, which explains the better results that Rubens had last year.


Adapt.

Its what separates the very good from the good.


Note - A very good driver is still not a great driver.



Alonso is considered the best adaptive driver on the grid by most, but he couldn't use the same brakes as Hamilton when he came to Mclaren.

A truly good driver knows what he needs to make himself fast, and doesn't want o f around with other bs..

Obviuosly I WAS TYPING THIS STATEMENT AT 7:33 while you were sending. You even quoted the message IN YOUR TEXT that you were responding to.

YOu want a screenshot to check that, or you got it all figured now?


You can't start a thread with a title like this without expecting some eggs to break.

Your title could have just as easily ben "TOLD YOU SO NA NA NA NA NA NA"

I guess this topic was started in the general area so it's OK if it sounds like a frikking youtube debate.

[kilcoo316]

Don't start logistical bullshit with me.

You try to argue that Alonso is a great driver but fail to see I posted he is not a great driver over an hour earlier.


Come back when you figure out the meaning of logic.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Alonso is considered the best adaptive driver on the grid by most, but he couldn't use the same brakes as Hamilton when he came to Mclaren.

A truly good driver knows what he needs to make himself fast, and doesn't want o f around with other bs..

Not true, Alonso could use the same brakes as Hamilton, except he Prefered the brakes from the supplier he used previously, (Hitco I believe).

Like you said, a truely good driver know what he wants and doesn't want to mess around with other rubbish...hence Alonso knew he preffered the feel of a certain type of brakes, and desided he didn't want to have to mess around with the stuff he found himself with at Mclaren.

[Giblet]

Don't start logistical bullshit with me.

You try to argue that Alonso is a great driver but fail to see I posted he is not a great driver over an hour earlier.


Come back when you figure out the meaning of logic.

I guess I failed to put together a list of who posted what when. i was posting my thoughts, and you came back at me. Whatever. Unbunch your honda panties and move on.

You don't think Alonso is great, thats OK. Funny you can disagree with almost the entire F1 fraternity. That's what's great about opinion, but all I was stating was facts.

You understand the the forum converts to your local time right?

[Kester]

Wow, get a room already.

[WhiteBlue]

Obviously, it is difficult to judge a driver in a car with an illegal diffuser, just as it was in last year's shitbox.

I would agree with several other commentators that the legaqlity will be decided at a later time. In my view they will allow the double decker diffusers if only to give the big whigs from FOTA something to think about.

Button seems to be a solid driver who usually had Rubens covered during their time as team mates at Honda. I would not put him in a class with Alonso and definitely not with Schumacher and other multiple champs. These drivers would have broken into the top drives long before Button did.

[Giblet]

Wow, get a room already.

I appreciate you jumping in.

[kilcoo316]

You don't think Alonso is great, thats OK. Funny you can disagree with almost the entire F1 fraternity.

As I said earlier, the term 'great' is banded about far too handily.


Hakkinen got it - undeserving in my opinion. Mansell got it, undeserving in my opinion. Alonso has got it... again, undeserving in my opinion.


I reserve the term great for the real greats of the sport. The likes of:

Fangio,
Senna,
Schumacher

That level of driver

Not the latest kid on the block, won a few races, maybe a championship, and the media hype machine goes into overdrive.

[RacingManiac]

The reason I think Alonso is great was by looking at his Minardi years, his Renault pre-world champion years, 2006 Imola and Istanbul GP, and the races he won last year. The guy can drive, and he can drive strategically when he has inferior equipment, and when his equipment is good enough for him to bridge the gap, he can do it(like last year).

[okram]

There have been some brilliant drivers who looked fairly average until they got in a decent car when they suddenly proved how good they were (Hakkinen is an excellent example - always seemed ok but nothing that special until McLaren gave him the right car)

No. I don't agree with that.

I would reword it to "there have been a number of good drivers that were flattered by their car and made to look brilliant."

I don't agree with this re-writing of history that Hakkinen was a great driver. He never performed beyond the car.


In my whole life of viewing F1, there has only been three potential candidiates for being called great drivers. Prost, Schumacher and Senna... and I'm not 100% sure about Prost.

[Note: That is MY viewing - older people will have seen more and will surely add to this]


Alonso is the closest of the current bunch, but he is still a signficant way off. For instance, where was he yesterday in the rain? You can bet your ass Schumacher would have put himself there or thereabouts by hook or by crook.


The term "great" is banded about far too often IMO. There doesn't even have to be a great driver in any given generation. So far, there are no real standouts.

I think your judgement methodology isn't on the same frequency with reality.

First: Alonso and Schumacher alone fits only into limited picture. It's never Driver A vs. Driver B. It's always, however, Driver A + Car A vs. Driver B + Car B.

Dynamics is aspect of both. Best results come only when dynamics of driver and the car is in state of balance.

For you particular example, i could just mention first few laps on Hungary 2006. Alonso + Renault (+Michelin) were far superior then Schumacher + Ferrari. Having in mind Schumacher's history on wet races, does that mean Alonso is better driver on the rain? No. It means Alonso + Renault were better then Schumacher + Ferrari (+Bridgestone).

None of us can access to complete dynamics of driver and car of those particular moments in the past, so only thing we have is to brutally limit ourselfs and live in world of illusions, with exceptions of course.

Since we are here, inform yourself by reading interviews with people who worked with Alonso and Schumacher and do high-level comparation.

Cheers.