What do you mean?Hoffman900 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 17:36I'd really love to see the power curves of these powertrains to the real wheels, I bet it's very flat.
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Honda F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa has outlined a number of reasons why Honda has been struggling so badly in the beginning of the 2017 Formula One season. He confirmed that lots of problems were not discovered while running on the dynamo meter.
What do you mean?Hoffman900 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 17:36I'd really love to see the power curves of these powertrains to the real wheels, I bet it's very flat.
Due to the hybrid system and the ability to decouple the turbo from exhaust gas speed, wheel torque isn't strictly governed by the IC's power curve as we know it. I believe they are allowed up to 161hp from the hybrid unit? They can apply any amount up to that point anywhere in the power curve, let alone the torque shaping from the turboWouter wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 17:48What do you mean?Hoffman900 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 17:36I'd really love to see the power curves of these powertrains to the real wheels, I bet it's very flat.
Ok, thank you.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 18:03Due to the hybrid system and the ability to decouple the turbo from exhaust gas speed, wheel torque isn't strictly governed by the IC's power curve as we know it.Wouter wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 17:48What do you mean?Hoffman900 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 17:36I'd really love to see the power curves of these powertrains to the real wheels, I bet it's very flat.
Looks like a Japanese magazine interviewed the engineers, that graph and other slides are featured.hasika wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 16:26https://nz2550.bvimg.com/14347/305e61319e87c504.jpg
Honda really did a fantastic job with the RA621H.
regardless of ICE rpm the K torque cannot exceed 200 NmHoffman900 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 18:03.... they are allowed up to 161hp from the hybrid unit? They can apply any amount up to that point anywhere in the power curve, let alone the torque shaping from the turbo
Got it.Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 19:45regardless of ICE rpm the K torque cannot exceed 200 NmHoffman900 wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 18:03.... they are allowed up to 161hp from the hybrid unit? They can apply any amount up to that point anywhere in the power curve, let alone the torque shaping from the turbo
(so K power must fall below 120 kW 161 hp with any ICE rpm fall below 5720 rpm)
conceivably K power delivery can slightly exceed the nominal 120 kW
(because 95% end-to-end conversion efficiency can be assumed - the permitted electrical power input is 126.3 kW)
The 2020 season was planned to start in Mar but delayed to July due to the COVID-19,the dashed line means that four months.So based on their calculation,although both them and Mercedes improves performance during the four months,the deficit became bigger when both came to the first race in Austria.
In the day, I didn't understand what was legally wrong with extra harvest. ICE - MGUK- MGUH - ES is a valid and unlimited path, I think...Snorked wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 22:35It's on that magazine preview link above, low resolution, but I'm sure it's says MGUH
https://abload.de/img/20211224_2028465mjcc.jpg
You see at Austria where it drops when the TD stopped Honda from using extra harvest mode / 20hz
I continues to be valid in the 2022 regulations. I was unaware that there was any move to restrict extra harvest. My best guess is that Honda only used it as a temporary measure whilst they figured out how to get more energy out of the H without reducing the output of the ICE.BassVirolla wrote: ↑26 Dec 2021, 10:21In the day, I didn't understand what was legally wrong with extra harvest. ICE - MGUK- MGUH - ES is a valid and unlimited path, I think...Snorked wrote: ↑24 Dec 2021, 22:35It's on that magazine preview link above, low resolution, but I'm sure it's says MGUH
https://abload.de/img/20211224_2028465mjcc.jpg
You see at Austria where it drops when the TD stopped Honda from using extra harvest mode / 20hz
Wazari, it's so good to read your words again.Wazari wrote: ↑18 Dec 2021, 07:52A beautiful Saturday afternoon. I want to say thank you to those who offered words of kindness during some difficult times and also words of encouragement as we continued our F1 journey. Whether Max or Lewis had won the WDC this year, I am very proud of what Honda and our “skunkworks” team has accomplished over the past seven years. I knew this day would come when we started this latest F1 project as it was estimated to be no more than an 8 to 10 year project.
I am really ready to retire now as well everyone on our unofficial team. I lost a dear friend of mine last year whose idea it was to form this team and help HRD with the F1 program after the terrible start in 2015. I am grateful to Toro Rosso, Red Bull and McLaren for allowing Honda to put their PU behind their drivers. It was my friend who convinced me to “get my head out of the clouds and put it to good use” and join this team. He had been with Honda since 1973 and was my mentor when I first joined Honda about forty years ago. I will never forget when we walked into HRD in Sakura the first day this last go-around and realized that we were on average over 30 years older than the rest of the engineers and staff there. I have seen “Old guys rule” T-shirts and bumper stickers in the U.S. and I think I know what I will buy my fellow team members for Christmas.
There were many internal obstacles and external influences that had to be overcome to get the 621 PU built the way we wanted it and to get it on the track this season knowing that this would be Honda’s last official year in F1. Fortunately we had some key proponents and an open-minded president willing to take on one on one meetings with people like myself to hear our side of the story. There were some key people against some or all of our ideas. The camshaft relocation and piston redesign were big changes that met opposition. Other challenges were changing the firing order to try and minimize exhaust pulses going into the turbine and convincing some people to get the Honda/GE jet engine people involved in development of the turbo. I think I have mentioned it here also that the blade/vane design of the turbine and compressor in the turbo are more important than the physical size itself. Luckily an old college mate of mine at Nagoya University was a key contributor to the “Kumamoto plating” process that was implemented to increase reliability of the cylinders and rings. This process is not a secret as some seem to think as it is patented and well published but it was his suggestion to use it on the F1 PU. Lastly redesigning the block so that the cylinder #1 is on the right hand side was also met with opposition because “You know, the #1 cylinder should be on the left hand side”….So needless to say, it has been quite the journey. We knew Mercedes was the bar. They build wonderful, beautiful pieces of machinery. The W12 is an excellent car. The 16B was also a big improvement over last year’s car but we knew we had to at least match the Mercedes PU with regards to power and reliability to give the 16B a fighting chance to compete and I think we accomplished that this year. Red Bull never gave up as they constantly brought upgrades this season. Not all of them worked as planned but they never quit nor did we. Also a big thanks to Mobil. The fuel and lubricants they developed for us was a significant factor to our progress.
One thing I want to mention is that sometimes we take for granted what is around us for inspiration. Since I grew up near Mishima city in Shizuoka-ken, my family would take many day trips to Hakone and since I was a baby, I must have seen Mt. Fuji from Hakone literally thousands and thousands of times. The view from Hakone and Lake Kawaguchi are my favorite. I could stare at Fuji-san and never get tired of her profile. Fuji-san was the inspiration for the piston crown. The slope, the crater, etc. nature’s gift to machinery. Funny and mysterious the way things work.
Next year Red Bull will be fine. I have spent a lot of time in Milton Keynes the first half of this year and the investment Red Bull has put into their PU division is impressive. The facility they built is first class and they have hired key Honda staff for this transition. Although Honda’s name will not be on the PU, it is a Honda. It will still be manufactured and assembled by Honda for at least another year. So I am not worried about next year. Again thank you again for all your support and congratulations to everyone at Red Bull and Max for the fine job. I would like people to remember that the WCC and WDC are not determined by one race but an accumulation of points won over 22 races determines the winner. In my opinion both Red Bull and Mercedes were both lucky and unlucky throughout the season. I will not miss the ugly politics of F1 and a big part of me is relieved that I am no longer at part of this circus. I wish everyone a Happy Holidays and Happy New Year. Be safe and good to yourself and fellow human.
