New generation of Formula 1 2022 and beyond car will remain utilize the old roll-hoop FOM onboard camera

[Zynerji]

But the belief that these things cannot be done in real time in 2022 is patently false.

Haha, you tell me exactly what you want done and I'll tell you if it can be done in real time. I won't even charge you for the advice .

I think you will be surprised

(very few conv. nn / DL image processing operations are able to be spatially parallelized and doing round-robin parallelization just pushes the latency such most people, myself included, don't define it as real-time any more. there are trade offs here but to say 'patently false' is laughably patently false and shows a misunderstanding of how current AI juiced imaging is implemented and the trade offs involved)

I think in the age of 3nm ASICs, the human eye becomes the weak link. A literal multi TFLOP image processor with Tensor cores can give (near) real-time image enhancement and capture as well as encoding. It can also fit inside a small enclosure.

I'm drawing the line at broadcast and presentation as well as archival footage. I'm not trying to suggest point-cloud laser scanning and modeling in real time. The tech was avaliable for small 4k onboard cameras in 2015. Today, it is only exponentially more powerful, and currently driving autonomous vehicles.

If nothing else. A few strategically placed 8k/240fps cameras should be on board for flexture measurements during the race. Those can just be stored for later review however, but would still add some "replay" value if made available during the race.

[nzjrs]

I think in the age of 3nm ASICs, the human eye becomes the weak link. A literal multi TFLOP image processor with Tensor cores can give (near) real-time image enhancement and capture as well as encoding. It can also fit inside a small enclosure.

I'm drawing the line at broadcast and presentation as well as archival footage. I'm not trying to suggest point-cloud laser scanning and modeling in real time. The tech was avaliable for small 4k onboard cameras in 2015. Today, it is only exponentially more powerful, and currently driving autonomous vehicles.

If nothing else. A few strategically placed 8k/240fps cameras should be on board for flexture measurements during the race. Those can just be stored for later review however, but would still add some "replay" value if made available during the race.

I mean I don't know what to tell you if you think what you have written has any bearing of the architecture of a real-time system.

Your first post was a hail-mary to parallelism (where possible - which you assume without knowledge of the specifics of SOTA in CNN/ML today) and now you respond with essentially boring TFLOP numbers for more or less sequential architectures? Which is it?

if an algorithm isn't spatially parallelizable then you are stuck with sequential operation plus/minus. I can tell you, for what people mean when they say 'my phone is amazing' is actually quite a lot of pixels - and this is important - CNN/ML algorithms that cant be parallelized (in general). This means so many FLOPS which take it out of real-time sequential practicality. Its just the nature of the algorithm (and **not** the implementation) of these things that they are not parallelizable in the easy way you imagine. That's just how it is. I don't know what else to say here.

If you do want to go back to your previous 'lets build a compute cluster from rpis+tensor cores or whatever' then the sequential nature plus/minus doesnt matter and you (hello-world would be round-robin) parallelize your way out of it. You get the throughput but you pay for that in latency (not what you want for live broadcast). In that case, your marketing TFLOP numbers are not really relevant, and the silicon process generation e.g 3nm is totally not relevant lol (see: parallelize your way out of it).

If you want to say 'record all the --- and we do it in post' then I agree with you, but broadcast (realtime, absolutely minimal latency and thus practically no latency budget for 'phone level image AI' at >> HD resolution) is a different beast and the details (which I know a lot about) matter.

(FWIW: point cloud from SLAM (very bounded, if needed), SL, lidar, etc, and subsequent texture mapping would be less FLOPS here ironically)

[Jolle]

I think a lot of people underestimate the challenges or having a feed send from a racing car to the screen. This has to work in every environment and with every law. It has to work next to an airfield, in a big city, in the desert, in rain drenched situations, between mountains and any other place Liberty thinks of. To implement a new system, takes years, especially during a pandemic where it's more difficult to have a test team join the circus to test a new system for reals.

[Zynerji]

It is my bad for not being more specific when I was talking about parallelization. I was more trying to convey "multiple camera systems all packed together" than "multiple processors working on one camera". The 3nm reference was simply to enforce the size more than any technology wizardry, as multi-core SoC's have everything on a single chip.

I understand that you are speaking of AI/ML processing and the latency that incurs. What I am saying is that to simply capture a super res picture (8k) at 60fps and transmit it to the broadcast booth is well within the bounds of modern technology, especially with F1 level budgets. Now transmission latency I can agree with, until someone figures out how to make a matched set of quantum-entangled WiFi antennas, that is...

[Zynerji]

I think a lot of people underestimate the challenges or having a feed send from a racing car to the screen. This has to work in every environment and with every law. It has to work next to an airfield, in a big city, in the desert, in rain drenched situations, between mountains and any other place Liberty thinks of. To implement a new system, takes years, especially during a pandemic where it's more difficult to have a test team join the circus to test a new system for reals.

A single 4G cell tower can have 100 simultaneous, beam directed connections to each F1 car within a 3 mile radius if they wanted to have a portable one at each event. Like the ones they drive to sports stadiums for overflow traffic. These could be aggregatable and redundant connections.

But you are still looking at 10ms ping times, so there will always be a transit delay.

[mzso]

People should not underestimate how many hundreds of thousands (millions?) of man hours of engineering have gone into mobile phone imaging tech.

And what, like a 100 hours for F1 cameras? It's so painful to watch such shoddy video for an organization with billions of dollars of money flow.
They look no better than a mounted gopro, maybe even worse.

[mzso]

I think a lot of people underestimate the challenges or having a feed send from a racing car to the screen. This has to work in every environment and with every law. It has to work next to an airfield, in a big city, in the desert, in rain drenched situations, between mountains and any other place Liberty thinks of. To implement a new system, takes years, especially during a pandemic where it's more difficult to have a test team join the circus to test a new system for reals.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're doing only low power and low range connections then you can do a lot of things, legality wise.
That's what I was getting at when I said F1 could brute force it. They swim in money. They could just populate the the track-side for the whole circuit with with many antennas.

[dans79]

People should not underestimate how many hundreds of thousands (millions?) of man hours of engineering have gone into mobile phone imaging tech.

And what, like a 100 hours for F1 cameras? It's so painful to watch such shoddy video for an organization with billions of dollars of money flow.
They look no better than a mounted gopro, maybe even worse.

I have to agree. As someone who owns high quality ILCs, even the latest generation flagship phones can hold a candle to them. The images look fine on a small phone or tablet screen, but horrendous imo on a large monitor or tv.

[Just_a_fan]

People should not underestimate how many hundreds of thousands (millions?) of man hours of engineering have gone into mobile phone imaging tech.

And what, like a 100 hours for F1 cameras? It's so painful to watch such shoddy video for an organization with billions of dollars of money flow.
They look no better than a mounted gopro, maybe even worse.

F1's cashflow is high, yes, but its profit for the FIA isn't. Much of the money is syphoned off to pay teams, shareholders, etc., before the FIA gets its payment.

What should happen, is the FIA/Liberty should require the broadcast rights holders to deliver HD onboard feed. Make it a requirement of any future deal. Sky has way more money than the FIA does, after all.

[Jolle]

People should not underestimate how many hundreds of thousands (millions?) of man hours of engineering have gone into mobile phone imaging tech.

And what, like a 100 hours for F1 cameras? It's so painful to watch such shoddy video for an organization with billions of dollars of money flow.
They look no better than a mounted gopro, maybe even worse.

F1's cashflow is high, yes, but its profit for the FIA isn't. Much of the money is syphoned off to pay teams, shareholders, etc., before the FIA gets its payment.

What should happen, is the FIA/Liberty should require the broadcast rights holders to deliver HD onboard feed. Make it a requirement of any future deal. Sky has way more money than the FIA does, after all.

Funny story,

up until the nineties the local broadcaster did the whole TV coverage and there were just a handful of onboards available. The quality of the broadcast wasn't consistent and far from good. Bernie invested around Schumachers breakthrough heavy in digital TV and took over the broadcast. This was, at the time, state of the art and never was there a digital system in use on that scale. He had several 747's with equipment shipped from GP to GP. The fun part was that it was in 4:3 aspect ratio. Not soon after this mega investment, the switch to 16:9 was made and for years F1 was stil in 4:3... The FIA has nothing to do with the broadcast, it's all Liberty/FOM. Basically, the feed from the circuit is their product.
My guess is that they invest heavy in a certain system, use it for an x amount of time and then switch over to a new system. The x amount of time is just not over yet.

[Zynerji]

And what, like a 100 hours for F1 cameras? It's so painful to watch such shoddy video for an organization with billions of dollars of money flow.
They look no better than a mounted gopro, maybe even worse.

F1's cashflow is high, yes, but its profit for the FIA isn't. Much of the money is syphoned off to pay teams, shareholders, etc., before the FIA gets its payment.

What should happen, is the FIA/Liberty should require the broadcast rights holders to deliver HD onboard feed. Make it a requirement of any future deal. Sky has way more money than the FIA does, after all.

Funny story,

up until the nineties the local broadcaster did the whole TV coverage and there were just a handful of onboards available. The quality of the broadcast wasn't consistent and far from good. Bernie invested around Schumachers breakthrough heavy in digital TV and took over the broadcast. This was, at the time, state of the art and never was there a digital system in use on that scale. He had several 747's with equipment shipped from GP to GP. The fun part was that it was in 4:3 aspect ratio. Not soon after this mega investment, the switch to 16:9 was made and for years F1 was stil in 4:3... The FIA has nothing to do with the broadcast, it's all Liberty/FOM. Basically, the feed from the circuit is their product.
My guess is that they invest heavy in a certain system, use it for an x amount of time and then switch over to a new system. The x amount of time is just not over yet.

Sounds like a great sponsorship opportunity. Rolex watches for official timing, TechCompanyX for official audio/ video. Spec the camera housing in TV focused locations, and let the sponsor bring their newest tech to every race.

[nzjrs]

Doesn't Monaco already run their own television direction (and infrastructure?).

[mzso]

Doesn't Monaco already run their own television direction (and infrastructure?).

Only Monaco. It was mentioned last year because of broadcast mistakes.

[Juzh]

Doesn't Monaco already run their own television direction (and infrastructure?).

I believe nowadays only director is not from FOM, which is why direction is notoriously catastrophic every year, but has reached new lows last year in particular. Apparently they used a guy that does football, a perfect recipe for disaster. Infrastructure is built and operated with FOM supplied gear.

People should not underestimate how many hundreds of thousands (millions?) of man hours of engineering have gone into mobile phone imaging tech.

And what, like a 100 hours for F1 cameras? It's so painful to watch such shoddy video for an organization with billions of dollars of money flow.
They look no better than a mounted gopro, maybe even worse.

F1's cashflow is high, yes, but its profit for the FIA isn't. Much of the money is syphoned off to pay teams, shareholders, etc., before the FIA gets its payment.

What should happen, is the FIA/Liberty should require the broadcast rights holders to deliver HD onboard feed. Make it a requirement of any future deal. Sky has way more money than the FIA does, after all.

You've got FOM (owned by Liberty) and FIA mixed up. FIA is just a governing body, it has nothing to do with onboards or any part of broadcasting or business deals and so on.

What should happen, is the FIA/Liberty should require the broadcast rights holders to deliver HD onboard feed. Make it a requirement of any future deal. Sky has way more money than the FIA does, after all.

This sentence doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Liberty IS the rights holder, and they do provide HD onboard feeds to broadcasters and FIA (governing body, as said). I'm not sure how SKY fits into all this, they just take what FOM gives them and sends it off to their users. This includes HD onboard feeds among other things.

[agip]

New centered camera in 2022?