2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Alexf1]

At the time they signed a contract with Renault, RedBull had one podium and no Adrian Newey.

And no engine supply blocking between teams

Renault blocked McLaren getting their engines in 93, Briatore had to buy Liger to get their Renault contract for 95 and RedBull bought Minardi to get their hands on that Ferrari engine.

They all didn’t go willingly.

When the RedBull switched to Renault, they were seen as a midfielder, like Aston Martin today. The Stewart factory and team never had any succes and the Sauber takeover didn’t work out. Aston Martin and especially McLaren had more succes when they signed with Mercedes then when RedBull did with Renault.

As soon Renault became ambitious again, around 2014/2015, problems were there between RedBull and Renault.

Mercedes of course, owning McLaren at the time, did supply to one of their rivals: Brawn.

Of course it hasn't always been easy, but it worked out most of the time. You know 2015 RB quit Renault because Lauda agreed to supply them with Merc engines which Toto blocked later. It even triggered a new rule: mandatory engine supply. Also Brawn had finished 8th in the constructors in 2007 (as Honda) so there was no sign they would be a close rival. No wonder they did get Merc engines. Notice the pattern?

[Jolle]

And no engine supply blocking between teams

Renault blocked McLaren getting their engines in 93, Briatore had to buy Liger to get their Renault contract for 95 and RedBull bought Minardi to get their hands on that Ferrari engine.

They all didn’t go willingly.

When the RedBull switched to Renault, they were seen as a midfielder, like Aston Martin today. The Stewart factory and team never had any succes and the Sauber takeover didn’t work out. Aston Martin and especially McLaren had more succes when they signed with Mercedes then when RedBull did with Renault.

As soon Renault became ambitious again, around 2014/2015, problems were there between RedBull and Renault.

Mercedes of course, owning McLaren at the time, did supply to one of their rivals: Brawn.

Of course it hasn't always been easy, but it worked out most of the time. You know 2015 RB quit Renault because Lauda agreed to supply them with Merc engines which Toto blocked later. It even triggered a new rule: mandatory engine supply. Also Brawn had finished 8th in the constructors in 2007 (as Honda) so there was no sign they would be a close rival. No wonder they did get Merc engines. Notice the pattern?

So what’s your point? Neither Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault want to supply engines to a direct competitor. They only did at moments when redbull, brawn or liger were seen as a non-threat. Why would it be Mercedes’ fault?

[Csmith1980]

You're answering your own question. They only want to supply teams that are not close rivals.

Same goes for virtual any sports team or business, right.

Not in F1 till Toto started it. RB even had a Ferrari engine before they switched to Renault engines (even though there was a factory Renault team at the time)

See replies above. Not everything is totos and Mercedes fault.

[Alexf1]

Renault blocked McLaren getting their engines in 93, Briatore had to buy Liger to get their Renault contract for 95 and RedBull bought Minardi to get their hands on that Ferrari engine.

They all didn’t go willingly.

When the RedBull switched to Renault, they were seen as a midfielder, like Aston Martin today. The Stewart factory and team never had any succes and the Sauber takeover didn’t work out. Aston Martin and especially McLaren had more succes when they signed with Mercedes then when RedBull did with Renault.

As soon Renault became ambitious again, around 2014/2015, problems were there between RedBull and Renault.

Mercedes of course, owning McLaren at the time, did supply to one of their rivals: Brawn.

Of course it hasn't always been easy, but it worked out most of the time. You know 2015 RB quit Renault because Lauda agreed to supply them with Merc engines which Toto blocked later. It even triggered a new rule: mandatory engine supply. Also Brawn had finished 8th in the constructors in 2007 (as Honda) so there was no sign they would be a close rival. No wonder they did get Merc engines. Notice the pattern?

So what’s your point? Neither Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault want to supply engines to a direct competitor. They only did at moments when redbull, brawn or liger were seen as a non-threat. Why would it be Mercedes’ fault?

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

[Csmith1980]

Of course it hasn't always been easy, but it worked out most of the time. You know 2015 RB quit Renault because Lauda agreed to supply them with Merc engines which Toto blocked later. It even triggered a new rule: mandatory engine supply. Also Brawn had finished 8th in the constructors in 2007 (as Honda) so there was no sign they would be a close rival. No wonder they did get Merc engines. Notice the pattern?

So what’s your point? Neither Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault want to supply engines to a direct competitor. They only did at moments when redbull, brawn or liger were seen as a non-threat. Why would it be Mercedes’ fault?

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

So Mercedes are now mentally weak for not supplying their closest competitor with a PU? Do you realise how absurd that sounds?
It’s like saying Barcelona were mentally weak because they didn’t sell Messi to Real Madrid.

[SmallSoldier]

Of course it hasn't always been easy, but it worked out most of the time. You know 2015 RB quit Renault because Lauda agreed to supply them with Merc engines which Toto blocked later. It even triggered a new rule: mandatory engine supply. Also Brawn had finished 8th in the constructors in 2007 (as Honda) so there was no sign they would be a close rival. No wonder they did get Merc engines. Notice the pattern?

So what’s your point? Neither Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault want to supply engines to a direct competitor. They only did at moments when redbull, brawn or liger were seen as a non-threat. Why would it be Mercedes’ fault?

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

Can’t agree with your point of view, F1 Teams (specially those at Top) are in F1 to win… There is no reason for Mercedes to supply a direct rival, nor for Ferrari or Renault… It would have been absurd for Mercedes to supply Red Bull if they didn’t had to, just as for Ferrari.

F1 has always been about the best combination of chassis + engine and the constructors (in the past read: works teams) have always had an advantage over the rest of the field… Claiming that Mercedes wasn’t the best of they hybrid era because Mercedes didn’t supply engines to Red Bull is something that you are entitled to do, but doesn’t reflect reality.

[Csmith1980]

So what’s your point? Neither Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault want to supply engines to a direct competitor. They only did at moments when redbull, brawn or liger were seen as a non-threat. Why would it be Mercedes’ fault?

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

Can’t agree with your point of view, F1 Teams (specially those at Top) are in F1 to win… There is no reason for Mercedes to supply a direct rival, nor for Ferrari or Renault… It would have been absurd for Mercedes to supply Red Bull if they didn’t had to, just as for Ferrari.

F1 has always been about the best combination of chassis + engine and the constructors (in the past read: works teams) have always had an advantage over the rest of the field… Claiming that Mercedes wasn’t the best of they hybrid era because Mercedes didn’t supply engines to Red Bull is something that you are entitled to do, but doesn’t reflect reality.

This

[Jolle]

Of course it hasn't always been easy, but it worked out most of the time. You know 2015 RB quit Renault because Lauda agreed to supply them with Merc engines which Toto blocked later. It even triggered a new rule: mandatory engine supply. Also Brawn had finished 8th in the constructors in 2007 (as Honda) so there was no sign they would be a close rival. No wonder they did get Merc engines. Notice the pattern?

So what’s your point? Neither Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault want to supply engines to a direct competitor. They only did at moments when redbull, brawn or liger were seen as a non-threat. Why would it be Mercedes’ fault?

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

It’s always been like that. Even more, the engine has always been the most important part of most championships. One of the few exemptions was the V8 2.4 because it was so regulated.
Lotus with the Cosworth, Brabham with the BMW, the Porsche in the back of the McLarens, the fight who would get the Hondas after that, the Renaults that followed etc etc. The championships that were won in the 70+ of F1 that weren’t done with the best engine of the field can be counted on one hand.

When McLaren lost their dominant engines trough the years, he didn’t lay on the floor behaving like a toddler that they wouldn’t give them their toys and neither did Williams. They went and find a new deal.

[AeroDynamic]

It’s kinda like saying ‘hey, the engine isn’t Part of the sport, we should be entitled to the rivals engine so we can have a competiton’

The engine is part of the competition. F1 will always be a constructor sport as much as a driver sport. Regs should support a competitive field but that’s it.

[Alexf1]

If things would be so clear cut, why did Lauda make a deal with RB to supply them with engines. He knew enough about F1 to know which deals could be made and which couldn't. Still he made it, only to be overruled by Toto who wasn't so sure they would be the best if they did supply

[Ryar]

So what’s your point? Neither Ferrari, Mercedes or Renault want to supply engines to a direct competitor. They only did at moments when redbull, brawn or liger were seen as a non-threat. Why would it be Mercedes’ fault?

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

So Mercedes are now mentally weak for not supplying their closest competitor with a PU? Do you realise how absurd that sounds?
It’s like saying Barcelona were mentally weak because they didn’t sell Messi to Real Madrid.

That's a wrong analogy. It's like saying, Mercedes sell off their engine and they can't use it. In fact, Mercedes were afraid RB would beat them and that's why they didn't provide engines to RB, which they were entitled to. Neither fact is undeniable.

[Csmith1980]

If things would be so clear cut, why did Lauda make a deal with RB to supply them with engines. He knew enough about F1 to know which deals could be made and which couldn't. Still he made it, only to be overruled by Toto who wasn't so sure they would be the best if they did supply

Did Lauda, within the company even have the authority to do a deal with RB?

[Jolle]

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

So Mercedes are now mentally weak for not supplying their closest competitor with a PU? Do you realise how absurd that sounds?
It’s like saying Barcelona were mentally weak because they didn’t sell Messi to Real Madrid.

That's a wrong analogy. It's like saying, Mercedes sell off their engine and they can't use it. In fact, Mercedes were afraid RB would beat them and that's why they didn't provide engines to RB, which they were entitled to. Neither fact is undeniable.

Why, if you invest millions to be the best, would you give your greatest rival, your investment? That has nothing to do with being afraid, it's just stupid investment if you do. Marko and Lauda were good friends and for a moment he forgot that it was business. Do you think Apple would give/sell their IP to Intel so they could catch up on mobile processors? No, Apple invested billions to beat them. Just like Mercedes invested millions to beat Renault, Ferrari and RedBull.

[Just_a_fan]

My point is that if you want to be the best you should be the able to win from any competitor. By structural blocking they avoid that which is a weak mentality, and as a side effect they made F1 become a chassis + engine constructor championship which it wasn't before.

How about if you want to be the best, you research, design, develop and produce your own PU with all of the hard work and costs associated with that endeavour?

Red Bull could have gone down the road of developing a PU for themselves in partnership with a specialist third party but chose to let Renault do it and then, when they didn't get what they wanted, they turned on them very publicly. Why would Mercedes want to enter in to what could very well have been toxic relationship with Red Bull? How likely is it that if Red Bull didn't win they'd have accused Mercedes of underhand tactics on the PU front? With Horner's and Marko's track record with Renault, "extremely likely" is the answer.

The childish invective from Horner and Marko at the time shows what would have happened. I can remember them saying that Mercedes were "scared of supplying us". Really, is that grown up language? Did they expect that it would bully Mercedes in to supplying them? That's why Mercedes didn't want to get in bed with Red Bull.

[Alexf1]

If it was really that black and white then the "you shall supply another team" rule wouldn't have had to be made and a team without an engine would be out. In F1 you must build your own car, not engine.