2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

[Stu]

You think if they buy McLaren, the don't inherit the debit? What is it 600M? Why not Alpine? They also have PU manufacturing ability? Or Haas, would be cheaper? You know whoever Audi buy, they might fire most of the employees and put their own structure in place? We also don't know something like maybe a VW high ranking officer's Son is a big Alfa Romeo fan and that's why they end up buying them instead of McLaren. Or maybe there is some big legal loophole in Italy and the buy Alpha Tauri? This is just stuff I'm making up but their might be reasons like this and more, that we're not privy to, as to why they'll make their decisions.

The ‘Alfa Romeo’ team would make a lot of logistical sense for VW/Audi group; the team is really still Sauber, VW/Audi have a lot of experience with their facility (for LMP & Pikes Peak challengers - not to mention GT3. Location also works well for them as does the easy name change.

If they were only interested in entering F1, yes, Sauber makes a lot more sense, especially since there is a good chance with PMI leaving, the Angelli’s going to put Alfa/Fiat back on the Ferrari. But, my reasoning is that VW isn’t interested in F1 but more in widening their growing portfolio of car brands. McLaren, as one of the last small independent car makers in Europe, fits that bill.

True, but do McLaren Cars make much in the way of profit?
From a consumer perspective, a McLaren with an Audi R8 drivetrain becomes little more than a Lamborghini; I doesn’t really add to the VW/Audi brand, it just competes against itself.
Koeniggsegg would be a better addition to their portfolio; cutting edge, experimental engineering solutions.
Although to really branch out an American brand would be essential, I would say, and there aren’t too many independents left there!

[Jolle]

The ‘Alfa Romeo’ team would make a lot of logistical sense for VW/Audi group; the team is really still Sauber, VW/Audi have a lot of experience with their facility (for LMP & Pikes Peak challengers - not to mention GT3. Location also works well for them as does the easy name change.

If they were only interested in entering F1, yes, Sauber makes a lot more sense, especially since there is a good chance with PMI leaving, the Angelli’s going to put Alfa/Fiat back on the Ferrari. But, my reasoning is that VW isn’t interested in F1 but more in widening their growing portfolio of car brands. McLaren, as one of the last small independent car makers in Europe, fits that bill.

True, but do McLaren Cars make much in the way of profit?
From a consumer perspective, a McLaren with an Audi R8 drivetrain becomes little more than a Lamborghini; I doesn’t really add to the VW/Audi brand, it just competes against itself.
Koeniggsegg would be a better addition to their portfolio; cutting edge, experimental engineering solutions.
Although to really branch out an American brand would be essential, I would say, and there aren’t too many independents left there!

That’s why they wouldn’t go with a Lamborghini/Audi drivetrain but a Porsche developed turbo V4/6 with a hybrid system and of course their carbon chassis, vs the aluminium from Audi. The exclusive brand from VW are high performance but also held back by their history. The tech from the 918 Le Mans cars aren’t very suited for the 911 like the V10 from the spider was for the Carrera GT. Same goes for Lamborghini, who just needs their V10’s and V12 to stay a Lamborghini. With McLaren in their portfolio they can also let Lamborghini be more Lamborghini, flamboyance before (track) performance while McLaren can stay hard-core high tech with race pedigree.
With VW McLaren could grow to be the Ferrari challenger they set out to be and make the same kind of profit, where a company like Konigsegg would be more of a “we do it because we can” company like Bugatti (and so far only build around 50 cars)
Next to Ducati, I presume that they are also holding tabs on companies like KTM and Derbi.

[Stu]

If they were only interested in entering F1, yes, Sauber makes a lot more sense, especially since there is a good chance with PMI leaving, the Angelli’s going to put Alfa/Fiat back on the Ferrari. But, my reasoning is that VW isn’t interested in F1 but more in widening their growing portfolio of car brands. McLaren, as one of the last small independent car makers in Europe, fits that bill.

True, but do McLaren Cars make much in the way of profit?
From a consumer perspective, a McLaren with an Audi R8 drivetrain becomes little more than a Lamborghini; I doesn’t really add to the VW/Audi brand, it just competes against itself.
Koeniggsegg would be a better addition to their portfolio; cutting edge, experimental engineering solutions.
Although to really branch out an American brand would be essential, I would say, and there aren’t too many independents left there!

That’s why they wouldn’t go with a Lamborghini/Audi drivetrain but a Porsche developed turbo V4/6 with a hybrid system and of course their carbon chassis, vs the aluminium from Audi. The exclusive brand from VW are high performance but also held back by their history. The tech from the 918 Le Mans cars aren’t very suited for the 911 like the V10 from the spider was for the Carrera GT. Same goes for Lamborghini, who just needs their V10’s and V12 to stay a Lamborghini. With McLaren in their portfolio they can also let Lamborghini be more Lamborghini, flamboyance before (track) performance while McLaren can stay hard-core high tech with race pedigree.
With VW McLaren could grow to be the Ferrari challenger they set out to be and make the same kind of profit, where a company like Konigsegg would be more of a “we do it because we can” company like Bugatti (and so far only build around 50 cars)
Next to Ducati, I presume that they are also holding tabs on companies like KTM and Derbi.

That is a very good point, I hadn’t considered them using Porsche powertrains (ICE, Hybrid or BEV).
Come 2030-35 it could possibly be the only way that McLaren Cars could be viable as a brand.

[diffuser]

True, but do McLaren Cars make much in the way of profit?
From a consumer perspective, a McLaren with an Audi R8 drivetrain becomes little more than a Lamborghini; I doesn’t really add to the VW/Audi brand, it just competes against itself.
Koeniggsegg would be a better addition to their portfolio; cutting edge, experimental engineering solutions.
Although to really branch out an American brand would be essential, I would say, and there aren’t too many independents left there!

That’s why they wouldn’t go with a Lamborghini/Audi drivetrain but a Porsche developed turbo V4/6 with a hybrid system and of course their carbon chassis, vs the aluminium from Audi. The exclusive brand from VW are high performance but also held back by their history. The tech from the 918 Le Mans cars aren’t very suited for the 911 like the V10 from the spider was for the Carrera GT. Same goes for Lamborghini, who just needs their V10’s and V12 to stay a Lamborghini. With McLaren in their portfolio they can also let Lamborghini be more Lamborghini, flamboyance before (track) performance while McLaren can stay hard-core high tech with race pedigree.
With VW McLaren could grow to be the Ferrari challenger they set out to be and make the same kind of profit, where a company like Konigsegg would be more of a “we do it because we can” company like Bugatti (and so far only build around 50 cars)
Next to Ducati, I presume that they are also holding tabs on companies like KTM and Derbi.

That is a very good point, I hadn’t considered them using Porsche powertrains (ICE, Hybrid or BEV).
Come 2030-35 it could possibly be the only way that McLaren Cars could be viable as a brand.

Little off topic response...
On a side note, ICE production for some countries will continue as they don't have the electrical infrastructure for BEV. Countries like India will have problems making BEV work. Not sure if they will continue to use ICE or something else like Hydrogen but BEV isn't a WW solution.

[diffuser]

1111

[Jolle]

True, but do McLaren Cars make much in the way of profit?
From a consumer perspective, a McLaren with an Audi R8 drivetrain becomes little more than a Lamborghini; I doesn’t really add to the VW/Audi brand, it just competes against itself.
Koeniggsegg would be a better addition to their portfolio; cutting edge, experimental engineering solutions.
Although to really branch out an American brand would be essential, I would say, and there aren’t too many independents left there!

That’s why they wouldn’t go with a Lamborghini/Audi drivetrain but a Porsche developed turbo V4/6 with a hybrid system and of course their carbon chassis, vs the aluminium from Audi. The exclusive brand from VW are high performance but also held back by their history. The tech from the 918 Le Mans cars aren’t very suited for the 911 like the V10 from the spider was for the Carrera GT. Same goes for Lamborghini, who just needs their V10’s and V12 to stay a Lamborghini. With McLaren in their portfolio they can also let Lamborghini be more Lamborghini, flamboyance before (track) performance while McLaren can stay hard-core high tech with race pedigree.
With VW McLaren could grow to be the Ferrari challenger they set out to be and make the same kind of profit, where a company like Konigsegg would be more of a “we do it because we can” company like Bugatti (and so far only build around 50 cars)
Next to Ducati, I presume that they are also holding tabs on companies like KTM and Derbi.

That is a very good point, I hadn’t considered them using Porsche powertrains (ICE, Hybrid or BEV).
Come 2030-35 it could possibly be the only way that McLaren Cars could be viable as a brand.

I suspect that EV powertrains for a lot of car makers will be sourced from third parties just like they do with everything on a car not made of metal (and the rest of the electronics). It’s one of the reasons Rimac has suddenly became an important player. McLaren could also be beneficial for VW as it isn’t an “old style” car company, making steel cages, and has a good history at control electronics. Basically what BMW has done with all their investments in the i program, setting up a whole new way of making cars (even knowing that McLaren outsourced the manufacturing of the carbon shell).

[Jolle]

That’s why they wouldn’t go with a Lamborghini/Audi drivetrain but a Porsche developed turbo V4/6 with a hybrid system and of course their carbon chassis, vs the aluminium from Audi. The exclusive brand from VW are high performance but also held back by their history. The tech from the 918 Le Mans cars aren’t very suited for the 911 like the V10 from the spider was for the Carrera GT. Same goes for Lamborghini, who just needs their V10’s and V12 to stay a Lamborghini. With McLaren in their portfolio they can also let Lamborghini be more Lamborghini, flamboyance before (track) performance while McLaren can stay hard-core high tech with race pedigree.
With VW McLaren could grow to be the Ferrari challenger they set out to be and make the same kind of profit, where a company like Konigsegg would be more of a “we do it because we can” company like Bugatti (and so far only build around 50 cars)
Next to Ducati, I presume that they are also holding tabs on companies like KTM and Derbi.

That is a very good point, I hadn’t considered them using Porsche powertrains (ICE, Hybrid or BEV).
Come 2030-35 it could possibly be the only way that McLaren Cars could be viable as a brand.

Little off topic response...
On a side note, ICE production for some countries will continue as they don't have the electrical infrastructure for BEV. Countries like India will have problems making BEV work. Not sure if they will continue to use ICE or something else like Hydrogen but BEV isn't a WW solution.

Off topic, in the switch to EV, we will see in countries the same as we’ve seen for decades. Production of old European models is moved to those places and have a second or third life. Think Beetle in South America, the VW Jetta 2 in china, etc etc. Especially in rural areas in those counties, you never see a current European car being sold, only in the (wealthy) cities.

[diffuser]

That is a very good point, I hadn’t considered them using Porsche powertrains (ICE, Hybrid or BEV).
Come 2030-35 it could possibly be the only way that McLaren Cars could be viable as a brand.

Little off topic response...
On a side note, ICE production for some countries will continue as they don't have the electrical infrastructure for BEV. Countries like India will have problems making BEV work. Not sure if they will continue to use ICE or something else like Hydrogen but BEV isn't a WW solution.

Off topic, in the switch to EV, we will see in countries the same as we’ve seen for decades. Production of old European models is moved to those places and have a second or third life. Think Beetle in South America, the VW Jetta 2 in china, etc etc. Especially in rural areas in those counties, you never see a current European car being sold, only in the (wealthy) cities.

I doudt that for india, Toyota's actively trying to find another solution. China is also in that group as most of their electricity comes from burning oil. You have there 2 countries that make up almost 50% of the worlds population but it doesn't make sense to use BEV.

[Big Tea]

Off topic, in the switch to EV, we will see in countries the same as we’ve seen for decades. Production of old European models is moved to those places and have a second or third life. Think Beetle in South America, the VW Jetta 2 in china, etc etc. Especially in rural areas in those counties, you never see a current European car being sold, only in the (wealthy) cities.

This is as much to do with practicality as any thing else. A (what we used to call ) traditional small town workshop would be way behind the curve with the equipment needed to service and particularly troubleshoot may newer cars for the last two decades.

It has got to a point now where it has become irrelevant and the kit is needed anyway, and the older cars have 'died', but the kit has also become much cheaper, and there will be more (most) cars needing it so a better return for the garage owner to allow him to update it.

[Jolle]

Off topic, in the switch to EV, we will see in countries the same as we’ve seen for decades. Production of old European models is moved to those places and have a second or third life. Think Beetle in South America, the VW Jetta 2 in china, etc etc. Especially in rural areas in those counties, you never see a current European car being sold, only in the (wealthy) cities.

This is as much to do with practicality as any thing else. A (what we used to call ) traditional small town workshop would be way behind the curve with the equipment needed to service and particularly troubleshoot may newer cars for the last two decades.

It has got to a point now where it has become irrelevant and the kit is needed anyway, and the older cars have 'died', but the kit has also become much cheaper, and there will be more (most) cars needing it so a better return for the garage owner to allow him to update it.

This was already in practice long before cars became dependent of special equipment to work on (like computers).

Plus, if you look at china, last time I was there, Jetta 2’s everywhere while the Chinese brands do need those computers to work on. Besides, if car brands would be interested or have the opportunity to sell current models there, software running on a cheap smartphone with a obd2 dongle would be made easily (never did so many people have access to a computer as now, even if it’s just a 50 dollar smartphone).
The reason is just economics. Like Apple selling the iPhone 4 in India long after it was discontinued in the rest of the world.

But.. all this has little to do with McLaren.

[mclaren111]

Little off topic response...
On a side note, ICE production for some countries will continue as they don't have the electrical infrastructure for BEV. Countries like India will have problems making BEV work. Not sure if they will continue to use ICE or something else like Hydrogen but BEV isn't a WW solution.

South Africa is another one... We have power cuts (load shedding) across the country on a daily basis...

[diffuser]

Little off topic response...
On a side note, ICE production for some countries will continue as they don't have the electrical infrastructure for BEV. Countries like India will have problems making BEV work. Not sure if they will continue to use ICE or something else like Hydrogen but BEV isn't a WW solution.

South Africa is another one... We have power cuts (load shedding) across the country on a daily basis...

Didn't know that ...

[Jolle]

Little off topic response...
On a side note, ICE production for some countries will continue as they don't have the electrical infrastructure for BEV. Countries like India will have problems making BEV work. Not sure if they will continue to use ICE or something else like Hydrogen but BEV isn't a WW solution.

South Africa is another one... We have power cuts (load shedding) across the country on a daily basis...

So, what if, South Africa (I know it’s quite difficult under the current regime) instead of doing nothing (what is out of the question with the power cuts), invested in a new, green (my guess there is enough sun and space for solar power) power grid which not only can handle EV’s but also use their advantages in that 21-century solution.

[SmallSoldier]

Little off topic response...
On a side note, ICE production for some countries will continue as they don't have the electrical infrastructure for BEV. Countries like India will have problems making BEV work. Not sure if they will continue to use ICE or something else like Hydrogen but BEV isn't a WW solution.

South Africa is another one... We have power cuts (load shedding) across the country on a daily basis...

So, what if, South Africa (I know it’s quite difficult under the current regime) instead of doing nothing (what is out of the question with the power cuts), invested in a new, green (my guess there is enough sun and space for solar power) power grid which not only can handle EV’s but also use their advantages in that 21-century solution.

It’s just a matter of when in the technological cycle a country is at the moment… For example, most countries in Latinamerica will not be able to make a switch to full EV’s in the short term, their infrastructure isn’t there to support it, not to consider that the average income wouldn’t allow a massive migration towards EV’s

[Jolle]

South Africa is another one... We have power cuts (load shedding) across the country on a daily basis...

So, what if, South Africa (I know it’s quite difficult under the current regime) instead of doing nothing (what is out of the question with the power cuts), invested in a new, green (my guess there is enough sun and space for solar power) power grid which not only can handle EV’s but also use their advantages in that 21-century solution.

It’s just a matter of when in the technological cycle a country is at the moment… For example, most countries in Latinamerica will not be able to make a switch to full EV’s in the short term, their infrastructure isn’t there to support it, not to consider that the average income wouldn’t allow a massive migration towards EV’s

And that’s why, in those countries there is no rule that ICE cars can’t be sold after 2030… it’s just in counties where it’s possible.