2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Henri]

Allison is the Chief Technical Director. The same post that Newey holds in Red Bull. Allison held that post at other teams too.

Allison held that post at other teams when they were successful. If we're saying that isn't leading the complete car design, then neither does Newey. Shall we revise Newey's list of successful cars too?

First things first. You should allow the original poster to express his understanding, unless you are in contract with all the Mercedes/Hamilton supporters that you will jump in for them. You do this almost every single time.

Tell me one car Allison has worked as a designer that won a championship.

Ignoring your usual personal attack, Allison had a senior role in all of the following:

2000 – Ferrari F1-2000
2001 – Ferrari F2001
2002 – Ferrari F2002
2003 – Ferrari F2003-GA
2004 – Ferrari F2004
2005 – Renault R25
2006 – Renault R26
2018 – Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+
2019 – Mercedes AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+
2020 – Mercedes-AMG F1 W11 EQ Performance
2021 – Mercedes-AMG F1 W12 E Performance

Now, you're going to say "he wasn't the chief designer" or similar. And I'll say, Newey wasn't chief designer on most of the cars that people claim he designed either.

Ultimately, all F1 cars are designed by large teams of people and no one person, not even the sainted Newey, can be said to be "the designer" of a modern F1 car.

Couldn't have said it better myself.. well explained f1 is a team sport to the fullest

[Ryar]

Allison is the Chief Technical Director. The same post that Newey holds in Red Bull. Allison held that post at other teams too.

Allison held that post at other teams when they were successful. If we're saying that isn't leading the complete car design, then neither does Newey. Shall we revise Newey's list of successful cars too?

First things first. You should allow the original poster to express his understanding, unless you are in contract with all the Mercedes/Hamilton supporters that you will jump in for them. You do this almost every single time.

Tell me one car Allison has worked as a designer that won a championship.

Ignoring your usual personal attack, Allison had a senior role in all of the following:

2000 – Ferrari F1-2000
2001 – Ferrari F2001
2002 – Ferrari F2002
2003 – Ferrari F2003-GA
2004 – Ferrari F2004
2005 – Renault R25
2006 – Renault R26
2018 – Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+
2019 – Mercedes AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+
2020 – Mercedes-AMG F1 W11 EQ Performance
2021 – Mercedes-AMG F1 W12 E Performance

Now, you're going to say "he wasn't the chief designer" or similar. And I'll say, Newey wasn't chief designer on most of the cars that people claim he designed either.

Ultimately, all F1 cars are designed by large teams of people and no one person, not even the sainted Newey, can be said to be "the designer" of a modern F1 car.

Wild imaginations. Why is Newey coming here? This is Merceds and Allison discussion. You can pull a whole list, but in none of that he was a designer as the original poster claimed. Like I said, if being part of a successful group is an achievement, then you can call him a "designer". But hopefully you would stop jumping in and let the original poster respond please, unless you both are same. We can pick up another indigenous discussion and continue our engagement.

[Just_a_fan]

First things first. You should allow the original poster to express his understanding, unless you are in contract with all the Mercedes/Hamilton supporters that you will jump in for them. You do this almost every single time.

Tell me one car Allison has worked as a designer that won a championship.

Ignoring your usual personal attack, Allison had a senior role in all of the following:

2000 – Ferrari F1-2000
2001 – Ferrari F2001
2002 – Ferrari F2002
2003 – Ferrari F2003-GA
2004 – Ferrari F2004
2005 – Renault R25
2006 – Renault R26
2018 – Mercedes AMG F1 W09 EQ Power+
2019 – Mercedes AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+
2020 – Mercedes-AMG F1 W11 EQ Performance
2021 – Mercedes-AMG F1 W12 E Performance

Now, you're going to say "he wasn't the chief designer" or similar. And I'll say, Newey wasn't chief designer on most of the cars that people claim he designed either.

Ultimately, all F1 cars are designed by large teams of people and no one person, not even the sainted Newey, can be said to be "the designer" of a modern F1 car.

Wild imaginations. Why is Newey coming here? This is Merceds and Allison discussion. You can pull a whole list, but in none of that he was a designer as the original poster claimed. Like I said, if being part of a successful group is an achievement, then you can call him a "designer". But hopefully you would stop jumping in and let the original poster respond please, unless you both are same. We can pick up another indigenous discussion and continue our engagement.

He was chief aerodynamicist on some cars, deputy chief technical director or chief technical director on others. That's as close to "being the designer" as it gets in F1. The reason why Newey is mentioned is because he is often claimed to have designed lots of winning cars, but his positions in the various teams were / are similar to Allison's. If it's good enough for Newey to be "the designer" in such situations, it's good enough for Allison or any other similar person.

As to your point about letting others speak, this is a forum. By its very nature it is an open discussion. Anyone who is a forum member can join in the discussion. If you want a private discussion with someone, send them a private message - the forum allows for that too.

As it happens, henri has posted a response: viewtopic.php?p=1026757#p1026757

[Ryar]

Couldn't have said it better myself.. well explained f1 is a team sport to the fullest

I knew that.

He was chief aerodynamicist on some cars, deputy chief technical director or chief technical director on others. That's as close to "being the designer" as it gets in F1.

There are dedicated roles for "Chief Designer" and "Chief Aerodynamicist", like John Owens, Geoff Willis and Mike Elliott has been at Mercedes who built those dominating designs and then there are tons of other aerodynamicists. I know Allison was "one of those many" for the winning cars. He was never the "the chief designer/aerodynamicists" for any.

[Just_a_fan]

Couldn't have said it better myself.. well explained f1 is a team sport to the fullest

I knew that.

He was chief aerodynamicist on some cars, deputy chief technical director or chief technical director on others. That's as close to "being the designer" as it gets in F1.

There are dedicated roles for "Chief Designer" and "Chief Aerodynamicist", like John Owens, Geoff Willis and Mike Elliott has been at Mercedes who built those dominating designs and then there are tons of other aerodynamicists. I know Allison was "one of those many" for the winning cars. He was never the "the chief designer/aerodynamicists" for any.

Allison is noted, on Wiki anyway, as being chief aerodynamicist on some of the Ferrari cars.

And as said, Newey isn't the chief designer or chief aerodynamicist for most of "his" cars either.

I assume you're having this attack on Allison because someone said he's one of the top guys ever and that gets too close to Newey for you. The reality is that neither designs the cars. They're both part of a team and both will have been involved in moulding those teams to some degree once they got to a high enough level in the organisation.

[basti313]

Couldn't have said it better myself.. well explained f1 is a team sport to the fullest

I knew that.

He was chief aerodynamicist on some cars, deputy chief technical director or chief technical director on others. That's as close to "being the designer" as it gets in F1.

There are dedicated roles for "Chief Designer" and "Chief Aerodynamicist", like John Owens, Geoff Willis and Mike Elliott has been at Mercedes who built those dominating designs and then there are tons of other aerodynamicists. I know Allison was "one of those many" for the winning cars. He was never the "the chief designer/aerodynamicists" for any.

Allison is noted, on Wiki anyway, as being chief aerodynamicist on some of the Ferrari cars.

And as said, Newey isn't the chief designer or chief aerodynamicist for most of "his" cars either.

I assume you're having this attack on Allison because someone said he's one of the top guys ever and that gets too close to Newey for you. The reality is that neither designs the cars. They're both part of a team and both will have been involved in moulding those teams to some degree once they got to a high enough level in the organisation.

??? I am a bit surprised. You neither get the position and credits like Newey got and you neither get the credits at Ferrari or a CTO position in the Mercedes company as Allison got it if you are not one of the top guys ever.

We are talking about the two (only?) guys currently in F1 that can pick their team, job and salary nearly at random. And still you find a reason to compare their dicks?

[Henri]

Couldn't have said it better myself.. well explained f1 is a team sport to the fullest

I knew that.

He was chief aerodynamicist on some cars, deputy chief technical director or chief technical director on others. That's as close to "being the designer" as it gets in F1.

There are dedicated roles for "Chief Designer" and "Chief Aerodynamicist", like John Owens, Geoff Willis and Mike Elliott has been at Mercedes who built those dominating designs and then there are tons of other aerodynamicists. I know Allison was "one of those many" for the winning cars. He was never the "the chief designer/aerodynamicists" for any.

He will be more successful than adrian newey. I know that hurts you lol

[Stu]

@Henri - just stop with the cheap one-line jibes. They bring nothing to the table.

[Just_a_fan]

I knew that.

There are dedicated roles for "Chief Designer" and "Chief Aerodynamicist", like John Owens, Geoff Willis and Mike Elliott has been at Mercedes who built those dominating designs and then there are tons of other aerodynamicists. I know Allison was "one of those many" for the winning cars. He was never the "the chief designer/aerodynamicists" for any.

Allison is noted, on Wiki anyway, as being chief aerodynamicist on some of the Ferrari cars.

And as said, Newey isn't the chief designer or chief aerodynamicist for most of "his" cars either.

I assume you're having this attack on Allison because someone said he's one of the top guys ever and that gets too close to Newey for you. The reality is that neither designs the cars. They're both part of a team and both will have been involved in moulding those teams to some degree once they got to a high enough level in the organisation.

??? I am a bit surprised. You neither get the position and credits like Newey got and you neither get the credits at Ferrari or a CTO position in the Mercedes company as Allison got it if you are not one of the top guys ever.

We are talking about the two (only?) guys currently in F1 that can pick their team, job and salary nearly at random. And still you find a reason to compare their dicks?

I'm not comparing anyone's dick. I was merely pointing out to ryar that his view of Allison might be incorrect. I merely used Newey to show that Allison has been in similar positions and thus Allison should be given some credit as Newey is.

[Stu]

At the root of all of this is a perception of history, Adrian Newey is usually named as he is (probably) the last of the generation of Chief Designers that did do the full car layout/schematic; this role has been transformed over the last 25-30 years by the increase in numbers. Where at one time there may have been a ‘technical department’ contains the chief designer and no more than a dozen other staff (if that!), there are now hundreds fulfilling this role (many of whom are niche specialists). With this it becomes difficult to attribute designs to a single individual, as the role of CTO/TD has changed. Look at the pivotal role (and achievements) that Paddy Lowe was alleged to have had at Mercedes, when he moved back to Williams he did not prove to be a magic bullet - does this mean that he is not a gifted engineer? (No, it does not, he was responsible for the detail operational design and control algorithms for the Williams Reactive Ride seen on the FW14B). On the same basis James Allison has played a part in the design of several winning cars and has lead Mercedes technically during a period of their recent superiority. Gifted? Certainly, but existing in a different era to the big ‘name’ designers of previous generations. This makes it very difficult to compare.

[cooken]

It's as simple as this: Allison is highly regarded among his peers. Consider that his peer group comprises the formula 1 paddock, top brass at several teams, etc. I've never heard anything but high praise towards him from anyone in the industry. So then naturally here comes a hot take from a fan outside the sport that he's nothing special, his achievements are hollow, and he simply stands on the shoulders of others. We get the same nonsense with drivers and other F1 staff as nauseum. The sooner we can just acknowledge that these opinions are not worth responding to, the better off we'll be.

The irony is, I bet if you asked Allison, he would act with deference and praise the teams he worked with.

[Just_a_fan]

At the root of all of this is a perception of history, Adrian Newey is usually named as he is (probably) the last of the generation of Chief Designers that did do the full car layout/schematic;

Did he? When? I guess the March 881. Newey did have success with March in Indy and IMSA too, of course. No idea how much he designed and how much others helped - back then the designers and senior engineers weren't the stars they can be today.

After the 881, the 891 wasn't really any good, the 901 slightly better but still Newey was fired. Then he went to Williams and worked under Patrick Head. Head will have had involvement in the designs back then so any "Newey" car will have been a "Head" car too, to some degree (we're back to the team aspect of F1 again already).

The thing is that back in the mid/late 80s, the cars and the aero knowledge was simple enough that one or two people could design them. No way that can happen today and achieve success.

It is interesting to look at the FW14 and compare it to the March 881/891/901. You can see a family resemblance.

[Stu]

At the root of all of this is a perception of history, Adrian Newey is usually named as he is (probably) the last of the generation of Chief Designers that did do the full car layout/schematic;

Did he? When? I guess the March 881. Newey did have success with March in Indy and IMSA too, of course. No idea how much he designed and how much others helped - back then the designers and senior engineers weren't the stars they can be today.

After the 881, the 891 wasn't really any good, the 901 slightly better but still Newey was fired. Then he went to Williams and worked under Patrick Head. Head will have had involvement in the designs back then so any "Newey" car will have been a "Head" car too, to some degree (we're back to the team aspect of F1 again already).

The thing is that back in the mid/late 80s, the cars and the aero knowledge was simple enough that one or two people could design them. No way that can happen today and achieve success.

It is interesting to look at the FW14 and compare it to the March 881/891/901. You can see a family resemblance.

Going back to his time in IndyCar and then with March/Leyton House is what I was talking about; Williams was a much bigger team (with a comparably bigger budget and resources), there he became a part of the strength of the team, whereas previously he was the strength of the team. If you read his autobiography you get a good idea of how things changed drastically over around 5-6 years in F1 (this is backed up by the John Barnard book too).

[PlatinumZealot]

Before Allison arrived rmember Mercedes had poor tyre preservation. Now it's arguably the best in the field.

[Ryar]

Before Allison arrived rmember Mercedes had poor tyre preservation. Now it's arguably the best in the field.

All thanks to Pirelli for those thinner tread tyres and regular modifications as per Mercedes

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