2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Wouter]

Honda’s former F1 boss agrees Red Bull powertrains role

It has emerged that Yamamoto, who was effectively Honda's F1 chief, is leaving the Japanese company this month to set up a consultancy that will work with Red Bull to help support its efforts.

Speaking about his plans, he said that the idea was for him to act as a point of contact between both Red Bull and Honda to ensure the relationships remain strong between both parties.

"We have established a new company," he told Motorsport.com's Japanese edition in an exclusive interview. "We want to do something that makes people happy, and if we win in F1, then fans will be happy with that.

"We've signed a contract with the company at Red Bull Powertrains. The company has me, at the request of Red Bull's Christian Horner and Helmut Marko, to support them.

"It's a contract between companies, so it's difficult to speak about details, but as one of the members of Red Bull Powertrains, I will undertake work that will help them."

[ ......... ]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... e/7649107/

[Wouter]

Other Red Bull engine plan: Honda longer involved in F1 project

27 Jan. 2022 11:00
Honda will remain involved in Formula 1 and Red Bull's engine project in the background for much longer than previously communicated.
Helmut Marko reveals that all engines up to and including the 2025 F1 season will come from Japan.
Related to this, Red Bull is not yet taking over the intellectual property of the engine from Honda, as stated in the first plan.

[ ....... ]

Helmut Marko:
"In the course of our successes, there has been a certain rethink among the Japanese. Then came the realization that they can use all the knowledge about the batteries in F1 for their electrification of the road cars.
Initially, the intention was that Honda would only deliver our engines for 2022, but it has now been decided that this will last until 2025. This is of course a huge advantage for us and means that we only have to do the fine tuning and calibrations ourselves."

https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/ander ... t/7647046/

[AeroDynamic]

So like I said, no R&D from Honda. The manufacturing plant will continue doing what they do, building the engines they developed up to now with Yamamoto consulting with RB otherwise they wouldn’t know what they are doing with Honda leaving abruptly. It would be like RB selling RB to Honda and letting Honda people figure out how to R&D a new drink; Honda know as much about developing drinks as Red Bull do about developing engines.

I don’t see the R&D being there from Honda to develop E10 with as much commitment as teams who are actually staying in the sport. It makes sense why they are behind.

What wouldve been ideal is if Honda had completely parted with more than is manufacturing plant but actually let RBR buy that whole team of people. But not everybody who worked on the Honda engine were even under the F1 branch of Honda.

[Ryar]

So like I said, no R&D from Honda. The manufacturing plant will continue doing what they do, building the engines they developed up to now with Yamamoto consulting with RB otherwise they wouldn’t know what they are doing with Honda leaving abruptly. It would be like RB selling RB to Honda and letting Honda people figure out how to R&D a new drink; Honda know as much about developing drinks as Red Bull do about developing engines.

I don’t see the R&D being there from Honda to develop E10 with as much commitment as teams who are actually staying in the sport. It makes sense why they are behind.

What wouldve been ideal is if Honda had completely parted with more than is manufacturing plant but actually let RBR buy that whole team of people. But not everybody who worked on the Honda engine were even under the F1 branch of Honda.

How did you measure it? "As much commitment as"?

[AeroDynamic]

So like I said, no R&D from Honda. The manufacturing plant will continue doing what they do, building the engines they developed up to now with Yamamoto consulting with RB otherwise they wouldn’t know what they are doing with Honda leaving abruptly. It would be like RB selling RB to Honda and letting Honda people figure out how to R&D a new drink; Honda know as much about developing drinks as Red Bull do about developing engines.

I don’t see the R&D being there from Honda to develop E10 with as much commitment as teams who are actually staying in the sport. It makes sense why they are behind.

What wouldve been ideal is if Honda had completely parted with more than is manufacturing plant but actually let RBR buy that whole team of people. But not everybody who worked on the Honda engine were even under the F1 branch of Honda.

How did you measure it? "As much commitment as"?

F1 is a development race. if you are leaving, you are winding down the budget and spending that projects require to keep going. Money don't grow on trees; somebody has to convince the board its a good investment and the people that sign off on them must present it as a good and successful decision.

With teams and engine manufacturers like Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault etc having a stable and streamlined budget, infrastructure and R&D resource, they are on equal terms. Honda has left and taken its R&D people with them to work on road cars and whatever else. RBR have to replace a many people. They at least have the manufacturing stability from Japan/Honda, and they Have Yamamoto for consulting the new people on how to maintain/calibrate/fine-tune the engine with supervision.

But what team of people have they hired to run R&D?? that's RBR to pay for and run. With all new people, this is not what I would call stable, or streamlined.. and certainly not an ideal position in a development race.

Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault have not even thrown their final 22 'for freeze' engine at the sport yet. they have gone a year longer to develop that while Honda pulled the leaver and let the horse bolt early to beat manufacturers running the present engine concepts. the strategy just about paid off for the short term. this year is going to tell if it works long term.

[Ryar]

So like I said, no R&D from Honda. The manufacturing plant will continue doing what they do, building the engines they developed up to now with Yamamoto consulting with RB otherwise they wouldn’t know what they are doing with Honda leaving abruptly. It would be like RB selling RB to Honda and letting Honda people figure out how to R&D a new drink; Honda know as much about developing drinks as Red Bull do about developing engines.

I don’t see the R&D being there from Honda to develop E10 with as much commitment as teams who are actually staying in the sport. It makes sense why they are behind.

What wouldve been ideal is if Honda had completely parted with more than is manufacturing plant but actually let RBR buy that whole team of people. But not everybody who worked on the Honda engine were even under the F1 branch of Honda.

How did you measure it? "As much commitment as"?

F1 is a development race. if you are leaving, you are winding down the budget and spending that projects require to keep going. Money don't grow on trees; somebody has to convince the board its a good investment and the people that sign off on them must present it as a good and successful decision.

That budget deficit is being fullfilled by Red Bull.

With teams and engine manufacturers like Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault etc having a stable and streamlined budget, infrastructure and R&D resource, they are on equal terms. Honda has left and taken its R&D people with them to work on road cars and whatever else. RBR have to replace a many people. They at least have the manufacturing stability from Japan/Honda, and they Have Yamamoto for consulting the new people on how to maintain/calibrate/fine-tune the engine with supervision.

Honda has repeatedly said, they continue to the work in the same manner with Red Bull providing necessary financial support.

But what team of people have they hired to run R&D?? that's RBR to pay for and run. With all new people, this is not what I would call stable, or streamlined.. and certainly not an ideal position in a development race.

Yet, Mercedes ran a dozen engines last year. One can hope that situation has somewhat improved for them.

RB/Honda pretty much have the entire Sakura continuing work. They are setting up a new facility in UK for their next adventure. They are not new people, most of them are Mercedes guys!!!

[Stu]

I don’t think that I have seen anywhere that Honda took 2021 as a year off, development for the 2022 unit continued. From March this year development is frozen for anyone anyway. The new news that Honda will continue to manufacture and supply to RBT is the big news and suggests that the new engine division is focused on 2026 engines.

[AeroDynamic]

Yeah the budget is being covered by Red Bull for '22 onwards, not '21 where the R&D was happening for the engine Freeze. Were Honda throwing as much resource and money at the final engine as the rest of the engine manufacturers?

What does the same manner mean, and how is it differentiated by Honda leaving F1 then? why do RBR have to hire new people (ex Mercedes or otherwise) to work on an engine that they never built? on intellectual property that Honda apparently doesn't even mean to sell on now. How will that work..those pieces don't add up to Honda competing with the current manufacturers with the same might, budget and commitment. This image speaks of a unnecessarily complex infrastructure to keep working on the engine for the next 5 years; because while it might be frozen, teams will be looking for ways to develop 'stability optimisations' that unlock performance.

Also, nobody actually said 'Honda took a year off' lets not take things to extremes to try and make a point. The question is how committed were they when they are leaving? hard to imagine they are as committed as teams who mean to be promoting their brand in the years to come and want to win. Not some ex Honda chief building a new company to consult between RBR and Honda after Honda committed their resources to other areas of their business in a bid to leave F1 and focus it on what they said are more relevant areas. They've kept hold of their IP because they want to use it in their cars but that doesn't mean they want to compete in F1 and fight a development race with the same hunger.

Last years engine is the ‘22 engine brought forward. The big re think, with all the R&D effort dumped into it. There is unlikely to be some big new rethought engine with all that degree of R&D behind it: which is precisely why I’m not surprised the E10 change is taking longer to adapt to reportedly than other teams. There will be re-thought engines with plenty R&D effort behind them though from Renault and Mercedes. Ferrari I’m not too sure.

[hasika]

If Ferrari and Renault rereach their 2021 power level with new fuel but Honda can not Honda still can be ahead of them or same level. But even in this condition it is bad for honda and for Redbull. And what mercedes will bring is more important.

When asked about how much does the E10 fuel affect the power? Asaki san said it was a "secret".
"Its a secret. It seems that other manufacturers said they reached the same level as last year, I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year."
——————————————————————
Asaki san seems pretty confident.In fact what Asaki san said was more like"I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year(for them)",if you understand japanese words and read the interview.So he may hinted that its not that difficult for Honda.

[etusch]

If Ferrari and Renault rereach their 2021 power level with new fuel but Honda can not Honda still can be ahead of them or same level. But even in this condition it is bad for honda and for Redbull. And what mercedes will bring is more important.

When asked about how much does the E10 fuel affect the power? Asaki san said it was a "secret".
"Its a secret. It seems that other manufacturers said they reached the same level as last year, I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year."
——————————————————————
Asaki san seems pretty confident.In fact what Asaki san said was more like"I think when they made such announcements,it must means it's difficult to output same power as last year(for them)",if you understand japanese words and read the interview.So he may hinted its not that difficult for Honda.

Thank you @hasika. I was understand it in the otherway.

[JPower]

There will be re-thought engines with plenty R&D effort behind them though from Renault and Mercedes. Ferrari I’m not too sure.

Ferrari's hybrid side will be pretty similar to the 2021 upgrade they introduced. The ICE side will be completely new.

[Big Tea]

So is the intention to eventually become a stand alone engine company supplying Honda 'approved' engines to Red Bull and AT (possibly others?) or is it a joint ownership/franchise 'thing'

[AeroDynamic]

There will be re-thought engines with plenty R&D effort behind them though from Renault and Mercedes. Ferrari I’m not too sure.

Ferrari's hybrid side will be pretty similar to the 2021 upgrade they introduced. The ICE side will be completely new.

Sounds about right, that's what I was unsure about; if they had brought forward their 22 intended designs in the other areas.

somebody suggested if the teams recover the performance loss from E10 fuel that Honda still an be ahead ; that is making a huge assumption – that the engines will still be of the same philosophy.

Renault have been running the same engine with little to no R&D on it for more than one season. They didn't bring their '22 power unit design forward like Honda did. When Renault introduces the '22 engine, you're going to see the '21/'22 Honda engine design that Honda brought forward, be pitted against Renaults multi year effort to pour R&D into a winning engine for '22.

The same goes with Mercedes, They have brought forward their R&D for the final engine freeze like Honda have, they are reportedly changing their engine philosophy for the '22 freeze regs; the final engine with all the R&D into it.

We are yet to see where Honda stacks up against these engines that have the yet to unveil what Mercedes and Renault have been R&Ding for the freeze.

[Wazari]

Happy New Year everyone. I have received PM's along the lines so I am taking the easy way and will try to answer them here since almost all the messages and questions seem to be along the same line. As I have answered some of you already several weeks ago, Honda will be involved in manufacturing the current PU's until 2025. The transition division has now become its own entity and has partnered with Red Bull. Moving forward, how transparent the information with regards to the PU will be up to Red Bull, not Honda.
I am very (I can't of the right word to use) pleased that many of you are still interested in Honda's involvement. The amount of resources used in 2021 to develop the PU for 2022 I would guess has exceeded any of the previous years. The new E10 fuel has required changes to the combustion process from the 94.25 fuel and several versions of the ICE designed for the new fuel have been running since summer break and a final version has been fitted into the new chassis and fired last week. I am very excited for the upcoming season. The new aero packages, tires, etc. should provide for some interesting outcomes in the season to come.

[AeroDynamic]

Happy New Year everyone. I have received PM's along the lines so I am taking the easy way and will try to answer them here since almost all the messages and questions seem to be along the same line. As I have answered some of you already several weeks ago, Honda will be involved in manufacturing the current PU's until 2025. The transition division has now become its own entity and has partnered with Red Bull. Moving forward, how transparent the information with regards to the PU will be up to Red Bull, not Honda.
I am very (I can't of the right word to use) pleased that many of you are still interested in Honda's involvement. The amount of resources used in 2021 to develop the PU for 2022 I would guess has exceeded any of the previous years. The new E10 fuel has required changes to the combustion process from the 94.25 fuel and several versions of the ICE designed for the new fuel have been running since summer break and a final version has been fitted into the new chassis and fired last week. I am very excited for the upcoming season. The new aero packages, tires, etc. should provide for some interesting outcomes in the season to come.

So it’s fair to say the development demands to get the engines working as well as they did on the previous spec of fuel is pushing R&D more than previous years because more than just redesigning an engine philosophy, this fuel change is about experimenting with ideas, trial and error, ways to extract the same level of performance from the new spec of fuel. This emphasises my point that the commitment to spend as much as they would if they were in Formula 1 is crucial. Because more than other years they are working with a new type of fuel which demands its own R&D effort.

On top of spending a lot in that development race (which Honda are reportedly behind on?) there is the regular elements to be spending R&D on to build on the engine (which was already brought forward as the ‘21 engine)

How will their updated (but otherwise final engine concept) stack up against the might of Mercedes’ and Ferrari who’s R&D is likely to be relentlessly pushing and throwing everything at their engines to bring a new and final engine for ‘22 now?

Thanks for sharing, I’m not sure how much to take from a best guess, as it’s important to quantify what the exceeded spending is on (trying to make it work with the new fuel specifically?) but your post really re-emphasises how much commitment is needed this past year from the manufacturers because the fuel change is clearly a much more demanding R&D effort to recover than first thought.