2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[djos]

Energy storage is far too heavy to allow F1 to be fully electrified, that's just a fact

No it's not, I just spelled out fuel cells int he comment you quoted.
They just need to develop one for F1, with some effort, it won't magically fall into the cars.

trying to move F1 to be fully electric too son would kill the sport dead.

You have no basis for that. Even if fuel cells weren't a thing already. In the sixties they outright went to F2 regulations for several years.

Fuel Cells and their required sub systems (inc a battery for use as an energy buffer) take up more space than batteries and deliver less power and range.

FCEV's only make sense for very large long range vehicles like Freight Trains, Semi's and maybe shipping at some point.

Not true. They could even pack problematic hydrogen pretty well into the Mirai. Also range was always their advantage. They can carry a lot more energy than batteries.
Also there's even more potential in SOFCs: http://web.archive.org/web/202006102329 ... W-TOPS-120

They definitely don't take up more space than whatever quantity batteries would be required to keep the power levels, which is like another car's worth.

Believe what you like, but the facts don't support your claims, FCEV's are much more complex, much more expensive and don't have major range benefits other than faster re-fueling - I could see batteries getting to the point of being F1 capable, but FCEV tech is big and bulky and complex and isn't going to magically shrink any time soon.

Toyota FCEV:


Tesla BEV:

[djos]

The Hatred that some here drip from their fingertips when discussing ICE technology on this forum make me wonder what they genuinely get from following F1 at all. It's like they cry themselves to sleep, whimpering while sucking their thumb. Angry that everyone else doesn't understand.

And here I am saying let's light the plugs and combust more dead dinosaurs!

I don't hate ICE tech, I love my little Turbo Terror - however, the writing is firmly on the wall for ICE vehicles. Most folk I know believe their next car will be a BEV.

PS, the whole dead dinosaur thing is silly, oil comes from decomposed forests.

I wasn't talking about your well measured opinion.

Cheers.

[mzso]

One word about compressed hydrogen:

Hindenberg

It's Hindenburg and it's wasn't compressed. And it was stored in a canvas vessel essentially.
Petrol is more dangerous when it comes to burning.

Not that I was promoting hydrogen, but you should be more worried about what happens when a 700bar hydrogen tank fails catastrophically in a crash.

[mzso]

Believe what you like, but the facts don't support your claims, FCEV's are much more complex, much more expensive and don't have major range benefits other than faster re-fueling - I could see batteries getting to the point of being F1 capable, but FCEV tech is big and bulky and complex and isn't going to magically shrink any time soon.

Toyota FCEV:
Image

Tesla BEV:
Image

You're comparing to Tesla, you should be comparing to F1. And throwing out the ICE which is already complex in itself and the MGUs and the gearbox, it would actually be simpler.

Also, despite you chosing a Tesla photo with only the engines highlighted it still needs everything on the Toyota picture outside of the fuel cell stack and fuel tank.

Volume is only a problem if you only consider hydrogen.

There's clearly something wrong with your vision if you think battery energy density can be improved by 20 times or so.

[djos]

Believe what you like, but the facts don't support your claims, FCEV's are much more complex, much more expensive and don't have major range benefits other than faster re-fueling - I could see batteries getting to the point of being F1 capable, but FCEV tech is big and bulky and complex and isn't going to magically shrink any time soon.

Toyota FCEV:
Image

Tesla BEV:
Image

You're comparing to Tesla, you should be comparing to F1. And throwing out the ICE which is already complex in itself and the MGUs and the gearbox, it would actually be simpler.

Also, despite you chosing a Tesla photo with only the engines highlighted it still needs everything on the Toyota picture outside of the fuel cell stack and fuel tank.

Volume is only a problem if you only consider hydrogen.

There's clearly something wrong with your vision if you think battery energy density can be improved by 20 times or so.

The thing is that billions are being poured into battery research by hundreds of companies (both in the auto and Consumer Electronics industries) vs Hyundai and Toyota being the only notable companies seriously working on Fuel Cells.

Battery tech is evolving rapidly eg "Vertically aligned carbon nanotube electrode" batteries with a possible 10x power boost and 3x energy density + extreme charging speeds. That's just one potential tech that could make Full Electric F1 cars possible.

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/new ... er-the-air

Volume for hydrogen storage is why I think FCEV's have a future in Big interstate trucks and Freight trains, they have the space for the fuel and the other items take up relatively little space. Imagine freight trains using all that space currently occupied by giant diesel engines connected to Huge generators being used for Hydrogen tanks and Fuel Cells instead. it makes a lot more sense than batteries in that scenario.

Sure ICE is complex, but it's also compact - FCEV tech isnt.

[Zynerji]

The Hatred that some here drip from their fingertips when discussing ICE technology on this forum make me wonder what they genuinely get from following F1 at all. It's like they cry themselves to sleep, whimpering while sucking their thumb. Angry that everyone else doesn't understand that the kids they are too beta to procreate will die when the world ends in 12ish years.

Actually it look more like you and some others are showing their heads into the sand with unending fervor.
The world is going blatantly in one direction.

And here I am saying let's light the plugs and combust more dead dinosaurs! Who cares how much plant food we make? We are all going to end up vegetarians anyways!

I suspect you're also one of those who yell about F1 being "the pinnacle of motorsport technology" in other threads.

I'm a free man. I can like and yell whatever I like, regardless of what the world is blatantly doing. What privilege does anyone have to deny my right to that?

[Zynerji]

One word about compressed hydrogen:

Hindenberg

It's Hindenburg and it's wasn't compressed. And it was stored in a canvas vessel essentially.
Petrol is more dangerous when it comes to burning.

Not that I was promoting hydrogen, but you should be more worried about what happens when a 700bar hydrogen tank fails catastrophically in a crash.

I'm a LNG supporter for F1 in pods for refueling. How does that pressure compare?

I'd be down for Tesla or the new Koenigsegg electric drive motors in F1, AWD even, but we need to strap the turbo/ mguh directly to the muffler and use the turbopulsejet contraption to make noise and generate the electricity for the motors. Then we can delete the batteries completely (supercap bank for braking/launching only).

I can settle for the Jet Powered EV compromise!

[NL_Fer]

The V8 was there for 8 years. Current V6 will be driven for 12 years.

The new V6 will probably we there till at least 2040.

Who knows what we will see after that. Maybe a FIA Cosworth Megachrome Gibson standard dynasaur V10 on sustainable fuel, without any car manufacturers involved. Maybe hydrogen, because the mayor oilco’s use it as a mayor trading. Selling hydrogen produced in sunny parts, to cold countries in the north. Swappable batteries.

It will be probably won’t be about the technology. But much more about which energy trade is done by that time. I think EV are be the main sellers, but electricity won’t power everything world.

[Airshifter]

Apart from the fact that this is a vague fantasy engine, what advantage could it have over fuel cells? (since it was purported as a "range extender") Not efficiency, certainly not mechanical simplicity. And no harmful emissions is rather doubtful, since its inherent to high combustion temperatures.

What working fuel cell supplied power is producing near the energy density required for F1 cars?

New innovations in ICE and hybrid systems are here now, working and in use. Though I have no problem with technology moving forward in terms of motorsport I think fuel cell power is a way off.

May as well explore ICE options while we can use them, until something else is proven to be a better option.

[Tommy Cookers]

The internal combustion engine has been in development for around 150 years....

the electric engine etc etc has been in development for around 200 years
the ICEV took over because of the electric's failure to develop (until recently)

the only important development is that which enables wind farms
the problem is the lack of low-carbon electricity - not the lack of routes to consume low-carbon electricity

does this thread now replace the banned thread ? titled 'Will EVs be viable - When ?'

[Jolle]

The internal combustion engine has been in development for around 150 years....

the electric engine etc etc has been in development for around 200 years
the ICEV took over because of the electric's failure to develop (until recently)

the only important development is that which enables wind farms
the problem is the lack of low-carbon electricity - not the lack of routes to consume low-carbon electricity

does this thread now replace the banned thread ? titled 'Will EVs be viable - When ?'

you kinda make my point here. EV's been in development for quite a while and they keep coming back at a battery powered electric motor, just like with internal combustion engines they come back at pistons. Both solutions had their alternatives, like Wankel engines, turbines and for EV's the fuel cells, etc. But battery power remains the most efficient.

as for, yeah, wrong thread but I bite. gas powered cars can never be "clean". Bio diesel has the best papers but still produce NOx where EV's can be 100% clean. The next push is to clean up the power grid, something you can't do with the oil industry.

[Zynerji]

The internal combustion engine has been in development for around 150 years....

the electric engine etc etc has been in development for around 200 years
the ICEV took over because of the electric's failure to develop (until recently)

the only important development is that which enables wind farms
the problem is the lack of low-carbon electricity - not the lack of routes to consume low-carbon electricity

does this thread now replace the banned thread ? titled 'Will EVs be viable - When ?'

you kinda make my point here. EV's been in development for quite a while and they keep coming back at a battery powered electric motor, just like with internal combustion engines they come back at pistons. Both solutions had their alternatives, like Wankel engines, turbines and for EV's the fuel cells, etc. But battery power remains the most efficient.

as for, yeah, wrong thread but I bite. gas powered cars can never be "clean". Bio diesel has the best papers but still produce NOx where EV's can be 100% clean. The next push is to clean up the power grid, something you can't do with the oil industry.

The hilight is false.

The minerals to build the car must be mined, transported, processed, manufactured, and shipped. Not to mention its need to be electrically replenished from some external energy source for its entire working lifetime.

There is zero 100% "clean" mode of transportation. Even walking causes you to breathe harder and exhale CO2 at a raised rate...

[Ferry]

Is it carved in stone that a Formula 1 race has to last for 1,5 hours and 305 km? I believe an EV solution would be powerful enough, and fast enough. But not for 1,5 hours. Look at the Porsche Mission R. More than 1000 HP, and a running time of "30 - 40 minutes of hard racing". https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/pors ... ve-review/ Haven't it been suggested to make the races shorter anyway? We already have the sprint qualifying. Maybe two shorter races could work?

On a sidenote: In Norway January 2022, Porsche sold 181 Taycan EVs. The combines sales of petrol cars across all brands was 175. The writing is on the wall.

[Mostlyeels]

The thing is that billions are being poured into battery research by hundreds of companies (both in the auto and Consumer Electronics industries) vs Hyundai and Toyota being the only notable companies seriously working on Fuel Cells.

As an aside, it seems like Toyota is producing FCEVs because the Japanese Government is pushing for them locally.

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintellig ... e-62160857

Japan has the world's largest hydrogen refueling network with 137 stations as of December 2020, according to Japan's Next Generation Vehicle Promotion Center. The government has set aside ¥70 billion to promote hydrogen in the fiscal year starting April, with ¥30 billion allocated to purchase subsidies of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, or FCVs, and the construction of refilling stations.

But Hyundai has stopped R&D on it's fuel cell vehicle (article dated 31 December 2021), though I assume it's still producing them.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltay ... 3542623588

[mzso]

The thing is that billions are being poured into battery research by hundreds of companies (both in the auto and Consumer Electronics industries) vs Hyundai and Toyota being the only notable companies seriously working on Fuel Cells.

Battery tech is evolving rapidly eg "Vertically aligned carbon nanotube electrode" batteries with a possible 10x power boost and 3x energy density + extreme charging speeds. That's just one potential tech that could make Full Electric F1 cars possible.

It does improve but not rapidly. These 2x-10x energy density improvements never happen. We went from 250 to around 450 wh/kg last I checked over several years and many small steps. It's not easy to get material to hold more energy. If you keep in mindt that the weight of fuel goes to zero you would need something like 25-35x improvement in energy density, to match the performance. Not going to happen.

Volume for hydrogen storage is why I think FCEV's have a future in Big interstate trucks and Freight trains, they have the space for the fuel and the other items take up relatively little space. Imagine freight trains using all that space currently occupied by giant diesel engines connected to Huge generators being used for Hydrogen tanks and Fuel Cells instead. it makes a lot more sense than batteries in that scenario.

Perhaps, but I don't think it will be hydrogen.
Trains also have more then enough space for batteries. Adding locomotives that are essentially huge battery blocks on wheels requires little effort.

Sure ICE is complex, but it's also compact - FCEV tech isnt.

It could be see the SOFC I linked. I think that's good starting point for development (250kW for 100kg). It would suit F1 fine.
ICE is compact, but there's very little meaningful development left.