FIA Thread

[basti313]

I think what happened today (Formula E) has kinda confirmed that Masi is gone. You would think otherwise they would have found a way to finish it under green.

No this isn’t going over the last race in 2021. My point is that nothing is by chance and today was the perfect chance to save Masi by allowing a similar situation (they could have finished under green even if only 2 corners) they chose to finish under SC which singles out Masi all the more.

It was team principals who, through the season, demanded the race director to avoid finishing races under SC in their meetings. He merely tried to live up to that.
https://thejudge13.com/2022/01/17/massi ... all-costs/

Zak reveals, “It is the teams who applied the pressure to avoid finishing races under a Safety Car at all costs.”

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your point is irrelevant, as Formula E is irrelevant. They have a complete mess in the race control. They bring out safety cars all the time and regularly create a mess out of it...examples last season when the half field was out of power or when Audi nearly sneaked into a front position through the pits. I think FE is the worst example if you are mad about unfair safety cars, crazy penalties or wrong and inconsistent judgement of crashes...
They try to keep it together and not try not to finish under a SC.

[bonjon1979]

It was team principals who, through the season, demanded the race director to avoid finishing races under SC in their meetings. He merely tried to live up to that.
https://thejudge13.com/2022/01/17/massi ... all-costs/

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your point is irrelevant, as Formula E is irrelevant. They have a complete mess in the race control. They bring out safety cars all the time and regularly create a mess out of it...examples last season when the half field was out of power or when Audi nearly sneaked into a front position through the pits. I think FE is the worst example if you are mad about unfair safety cars, crazy penalties or wrong and inconsistent judgement of crashes...
They try to keep it together and not try not to finish under a SC.

What they agreed to, was to finish under racing conditions, so long as it was safe and WITHIN THE RULES. What happened at the end of last season, was quite clearly, against the rules as written.

[NathanOlder]

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your point is irrelevant, as Formula E is irrelevant. They have a complete mess in the race control. They bring out safety cars all the time and regularly create a mess out of it...examples last season when the half field was out of power or when Audi nearly sneaked into a front position through the pits. I think FE is the worst example if you are mad about unfair safety cars, crazy penalties or wrong and inconsistent judgement of crashes...
They try to keep it together and not try not to finish under a SC.

What they agreed to, was to finish under racing conditions, so long as it was safe and WITHIN THE RULES. What happened at the end of last season, was quite clearly, against the rules as written.

Exactly, some folk seem to think the team agreed "all races must finish under green flag conditions" but thats simply not the case. All the teams just want each race to have the best chance to finish under green flag conditions, so if its possible (safe and within the rules) finish under green, like you said.

[basti313]

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your point is irrelevant, as Formula E is irrelevant. They have a complete mess in the race control. They bring out safety cars all the time and regularly create a mess out of it...examples last season when the half field was out of power or when Audi nearly sneaked into a front position through the pits. I think FE is the worst example if you are mad about unfair safety cars, crazy penalties or wrong and inconsistent judgement of crashes...
They try to keep it together and not try not to finish under a SC.

What they agreed to, was to finish under racing conditions, so long as it was safe and WITHIN THE RULES. What happened at the end of last season, was quite clearly, against the rules as written.

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule. Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way once we have a close battle again.

[Wouter]

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule.
Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way
once we have a close battle again.

I agree to that.

[Jolle]

Your point is irrelevant, as Formula E is irrelevant. They have a complete mess in the race control. They bring out safety cars all the time and regularly create a mess out of it...examples last season when the half field was out of power or when Audi nearly sneaked into a front position through the pits. I think FE is the worst example if you are mad about unfair safety cars, crazy penalties or wrong and inconsistent judgement of crashes...
They try to keep it together and not try not to finish under a SC.

What they agreed to, was to finish under racing conditions, so long as it was safe and WITHIN THE RULES. What happened at the end of last season, was quite clearly, against the rules as written.

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule. Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way once we have a close battle again.

Most of the situations you mention here have rules and guidelines. The cases for instance that someone tags a rear wheel, get punished with a time penalty. Same with safety cars. Pitstops and red flags. There are rules and, with effort, they are applied to everyone equally. You might want harder punishments or something or a change in the rules but, the rules are there and known to all teams and they are equal.

In the last race rules were applied unequal. Verstappen races under different rules than someone like Sainz or even Hamilton (who had pressure from behind whole Verstappen did not).

[NathanOlder]

Your point is irrelevant, as Formula E is irrelevant. They have a complete mess in the race control. They bring out safety cars all the time and regularly create a mess out of it...examples last season when the half field was out of power or when Audi nearly sneaked into a front position through the pits. I think FE is the worst example if you are mad about unfair safety cars, crazy penalties or wrong and inconsistent judgement of crashes...
They try to keep it together and not try not to finish under a SC.

What they agreed to, was to finish under racing conditions, so long as it was safe and WITHIN THE RULES. What happened at the end of last season, was quite clearly, against the rules as written.

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule. Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way once we have a close battle again.

Your list of grey area's are only grey because of the race director. if they were enforced properly, they wouldn't be grey.

[basti313]

What they agreed to, was to finish under racing conditions, so long as it was safe and WITHIN THE RULES. What happened at the end of last season, was quite clearly, against the rules as written.

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule. Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way once we have a close battle again.

Most of the situations you mention here have rules and guidelines. The cases for instance that someone tags a rear wheel, get punished with a time penalty. Same with safety cars. Pitstops and red flags. There are rules and, with effort, they are applied to everyone equally. You might want harder punishments or something or a change in the rules but, the rules are there and known to all teams and they are equal.

In the last race rules were applied unequal. Verstappen races under different rules than someone like Sainz or even Hamilton (who had pressure from behind whole Verstappen did not).

Come on...not the last race again. And as soon that someone talks about Sainz, we know the argument is rubbish, he was on old tires...so let us skip this please.

To the rest:
No, I do not see it as appropriate rules in F1 anymore. We had about 100 pages of Jing Yang who is to blame for every touch we saw this season, so I think it is valid to say that nothing is clear. Of course the Ham fans are clear that it was Max fault and the Max fans are clear that it was Ham fault...but what I mean is a normal CLEAR.

Just comparing to DTM in this regard is very telling. In DTM they have rock solid cars that survive touches very well. In F1 in contrast crucial parts are flying on 90% of the touches. So I would asume that F1 has stricter rules than DTM....
But with DTM rules Ham and Max would have enjoyed many drive throughs...I can see at least 10 save situation where the DTM stewards would have handed a severe time or a drive through penalty. I do not want to discuss who deserved more, just saying 10 in sum easily so that the Max fans can think Lewis would have earned 10 in my opinion and the Lewis fans can think Max earned 10 in my opinion.
Now if we look at F1 stewarding both of them received not more than two penalties in sum, none really harsh, rest rather in the region of "please give the place back".

Or just look at the ridiculous situation with Alo vs. Rai in the US...I mean...honestly, they just drive unmotivated into each others car and wherever they want and in the end both are somehow completely ok in regard to the rules....just saying that from the rules and how they are applied it is ok, but for someone interested not only in some WWE sports, but high tech sports this is a bit puzzling I would say.

I also not say that there are 100% no rules behind or the rules are bad, but for example for the SC and VSC stuff we have rules that 100% favor the one who is lucky with when and if the race director pushes the button. If you want to get the race director off the table, these rules need to be changed so that the result is robust and unaffected on when the race director pushes which button.

[Tvetovnato]

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule. Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way once we have a close battle again.

Most of the situations you mention here have rules and guidelines. The cases for instance that someone tags a rear wheel, get punished with a time penalty. Same with safety cars. Pitstops and red flags. There are rules and, with effort, they are applied to everyone equally. You might want harder punishments or something or a change in the rules but, the rules are there and known to all teams and they are equal.

In the last race rules were applied unequal. Verstappen races under different rules than someone like Sainz or even Hamilton (who had pressure from behind whole Verstappen did not).

Come on...not the last race again. And as soon that someone talks about Sainz, we know the argument is rubbish, he was on old tires...so let us skip this please.

To the rest:
No, I do not see it as appropriate rules in F1 anymore. We had about 100 pages of Jing Yang who is to blame for every touch we saw this season, so I think it is valid to say that nothing is clear. Of course the Ham fans are clear that it was Max fault and the Max fans are clear that it was Ham fault...but what I mean is a normal CLEAR.

Just comparing to DTM in this regard is very telling. In DTM they have rock solid cars that survive touches very well. In F1 in contrast crucial parts are flying on 90% of the touches. So I would asume that F1 has stricter rules than DTM....
But with DTM rules Ham and Max would have enjoyed many drive throughs...I can see at least 10 save situation where the DTM stewards would have handed a severe time or a drive through penalty. I do not want to discuss who deserved more, just saying 10 in sum easily so that the Max fans can think Lewis would have earned 10 in my opinion and the Lewis fans can think Max earned 10 in my opinion.
Now if we look at F1 stewarding both of them received not more than two penalties in sum, none really harsh, rest rather in the region of "please give the place back".

Or just look at the ridiculous situation with Alo vs. Rai in the US...I mean...honestly, they just drive unmotivated into each others car and wherever they want and in the end both are somehow completely ok in regard to the rules....just saying that from the rules and how they are applied it is ok, but for someone interested not only in some WWE sports, but high tech sports this is a bit puzzling I would say.

I also not say that there are 100% no rules behind or the rules are bad, but for example for the SC and VSC stuff we have rules that 100% favor the one who is lucky with when and if the race director pushes the button. If you want to get the race director off the table, these rules need to be changed so that the result is robust and unaffected on when the race director pushes which button.

What? Sainz is absolute key in this, and any other driver who did not get the same chance to race anyone as Verstappen did. Him being on old tyres is completely irrelevant. All it would take is for the car in front of him to overshoot a braking point, allowing Sainz to still send it up the inside and take the position. We don’t know what would happen, but sporting fairness means giving everyone the same chance and opportunities to progress under the regulations, and not just one driver.

[nzjrs]

Might as well close this thread now I guess.

[Restomaniac]

It was team principals who, through the season, demanded the race director to avoid finishing races under SC in their meetings. He merely tried to live up to that.
https://thejudge13.com/2022/01/17/massi ... all-costs/

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your point is irrelevant, as Formula E is irrelevant. They have a complete mess in the race control. They bring out safety cars all the time and regularly create a mess out of it...examples last season when the half field was out of power or when Audi nearly sneaked into a front position through the pits. I think FE is the worst example if you are mad about unfair safety cars, crazy penalties or wrong and inconsistent judgement of crashes...
They try to keep it together and not try not to finish under a SC.

Sorry but no.

They could have followed new precedents to show everyone that Masi wasn’t miles outside the norm. But no they followed the rules as written which just highlighted Masi even more. Kinda confirms what the FIA’s current thinking is.

[cooken]

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule. Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way once we have a close battle again.

Most of the situations you mention here have rules and guidelines. The cases for instance that someone tags a rear wheel, get punished with a time penalty. Same with safety cars. Pitstops and red flags. There are rules and, with effort, they are applied to everyone equally. You might want harder punishments or something or a change in the rules but, the rules are there and known to all teams and they are equal.

In the last race rules were applied unequal. Verstappen races under different rules than someone like Sainz or even Hamilton (who had pressure from behind whole Verstappen did not).

Come on...not the last race again. And as soon that someone talks about Sainz, we know the argument is rubbish, he was on old tires...so let us skip this please.

The entire FIA investigation and restructuring (and therefore this thread) were precipitated by the events which took place in the last race. So it is of central relevance, not sure why anyone would be surprised it keeps getting brought up.

Lewis was also on old tyres. So that mean he forfeits the right to race anyone? Weird logic. Why wasn't Sainz, for example allowed an attempt to overtake Hamilton for P2 seeing as Verstappen was all but guaranteed P1?

Not to mention the very likely scenario that Max and Lewis trip over eachother giving Carlos a window.

[Stu]

Yet again…..

Give the race replays a rest and move back on topic - the FIA - or it gets locked.

[Ryar]

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule.
Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way
once we have a close battle again.

I agree to that.

Same here. I said this in one of my posts that, FIA need to fix the problem, not the person. They can't be emotional about the problem and mislead themselves by sacrificing one individual to then think, somehow it would fix the problem.

[AeroDynamic]

Sure? I still read the rule in the way that the race director can do with the SC in principle what he wants, in any technical rule it would be a clear grey area. I am still sure, as said above, that this scenario was prepared in the discussions about starting a race quickly way before this race....and it all went down so bad to interpret this grey area as they did.

I think it is totally ok and I support you with black and white interpretation when you argue with Max fans here. But if we want to discuss the future of the race director and how we would like to have the rules develop we need to look at it more open and see also the grey instead of the black and white in the rule.
Maybe exactly this grey needs to go away more than Masi.

For me these grey areas are clearly:
- Pushing off another driver from the track. (Lex Max, Fonso, Lewis)
- Hitting the rear wheel of another driver. (Lex Lewis, George)
- Red flag situation clarity.
- Free pitstops under SC, VSC.
- VSC period, sector?
- Sausage curbs or track limits.
- Getting rid of backmarkers during SC quickly.

If these points get a clear clarification I can see Masi going on. If not....I see any other race director fail the same way
once we have a close battle again.

I agree to that.

Same here. I said this in one of my posts that, FIA need to fix the problem, not the person. They can't be emotional about the problem and mislead themselves by sacrificing one individual to then think, somehow it would fix the problem.

Why do some of you assume that both isn't the solution? it appears that's what they're looking at doing. Masi hasn't been 'fired' and they are changing things. The changes being discussed is addressing the issues concerning all. The final thing they may do is remove Masi specifically from the race director role, because regardless of the issue's of F1, he contributed his own weaknesses to the problem and made it a lot worse: Things were not this poor under Charlie Whiting.. Horner's comments about missing Charlie Whiting say this loud and clear.

Masi proved unfit for purpose in that role. It's not written in the rules to bend and cave to lobbying team bosses. He messed up on his own, and 'letting them race' was a mistake and philosophy he adopted under his tenure after Charlie passed. He is falling on his own sword here with his people-pleasing weakness.