2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[mzso]

I'm a free man. I can like and yell whatever I like, regardless of what the world is blatantly doing. What privilege does anyone have to deny my right to that?

You contradict yourself when you do that meanwhile you're pushing for ICE. A good degree of cognitive dissonance.

I'm a LNG supporter for F1 in pods for refueling. How does that pressure compare?

Methane is near as bad as hydrogen. Practically the second worse gas. Alkanes only start looking good for storage with propane/butane.

(supercap bank for braking/launching only).

That's still a lot of weight because of their very poor energy density.

The new V6 will probably we there till at least 2040.

I wouldn't bet on it. Trends are changing at an accelerated rate right now. I think the V6 will look backward soon after the new PU formula is deployed.

[mzso]

What working fuel cell supplied power is producing near the energy density required for F1 cars?

New innovations in ICE and hybrid systems are here now, working and in use. Though I have no problem with technology moving forward in terms of motorsport I think fuel cell power is a way off.

May as well explore ICE options while we can use them, until something else is proven to be a better option.

The experimental one I linked. But it's about power density. The energy density is mostly dependent on the fuel.

[mzso]

The internal combustion engine has been in development for around 150 years....

the electric engine etc etc has been in development for around 200 years
the ICEV took over because of the electric's failure to develop (until recently)

ICEs took over because because of short shortsightedness. Porsche made a pretty decent series hybrid on first try. But development went toward pouring more fuel into the cars.

the only important development is that which enables wind farms
the problem is the lack of low-carbon electricity - not the lack of routes to consume low-carbon electricity

The hell is that supposed to mean? Wind farms have little relevance to electric motor/generator development. You just put whatever you have in them.
And the lack of low carbon electricity is an ideological/political one. We could be fully nuclear powered for decades...

[mzso]

Is it carved in stone that a Formula 1 race has to last for 1,5 hours and 305 km? I believe an EV solution would be powerful enough, and fast enough. But not for 1,5 hours. Look at the Porsche Mission R. More than 1000 HP, and a running time of "30 - 40 minutes of hard racing". https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/pors ... ve-review/ Haven't it been suggested to make the races shorter anyway? We already have the sprint qualifying. Maybe two shorter races could work?

On a sidenote: In Norway January 2022, Porsche sold 181 Taycan EVs. The combines sales of petrol cars across all brands was 175. The writing is on the wall.

Pretty much in my opinion. The expectation is well ingrained. All so it matches the length of typical movies. So people are used to expecting that amount of entertainment in one sitting.
If it's around third or halfway there they could just swap cars once or twice. But whiners would whine...
Some battery swap could also work.

[Zynerji]

After watching the Formula E replay.

Oh Lord are we in for an awful EV future...

[Airshifter]

What working fuel cell supplied power is producing near the energy density required for F1 cars?

New innovations in ICE and hybrid systems are here now, working and in use. Though I have no problem with technology moving forward in terms of motorsport I think fuel cell power is a way off.

May as well explore ICE options while we can use them, until something else is proven to be a better option.

The experimental one I linked. But it's about power density. The energy density is mostly dependent on the fuel.

Turbocharging an ICE increases power density, but unless the fuel has the energy density that prevents the space and weight savings to benefit the smaller package, the overall change is not much.

What fuel in combination with this experimental fuel cell is going to be able to power a Formula 1 car as well as the current combination of power sources and fuels without adding more weight, issues, etc?

[Zynerji]

I'm a free man. I can like and yell whatever I like, regardless of what the world is blatantly doing. What privilege does anyone have to deny my right to that?

You contradict yourself when you do that meanwhile you're pushing for ICE. A good degree of cognitive dissonance.

I'm a LNG supporter for F1 in pods for refueling. How does that pressure compare?

Methane is near as bad as hydrogen. Practically the second worse gas. Alkanes only start looking good for storage with propane/butane.

(supercap bank for braking/launching only).

That's still a lot of weight because of their very poor energy density.

The new V6 will probably we there till at least 2040.

I wouldn't bet on it. Trends are changing at an accelerated rate right now. I think the V6 will look backward soon after the new PU formula is deployed.

Still mad that I have an opinion different than yours...

Full EV F1, while inevitable, is not interesting or compelling. It will kill my Fandom, and I'm assuming there are others that feel similar.

But don't worry. You can gloat and feel great about yourself after it's all implemented exactly as you feel best.

I'm sure you will find any number of excuses and blame for others when the ratings tank after the sport runs out of gas.

[djos]

The thing is that billions are being poured into battery research by hundreds of companies (both in the auto and Consumer Electronics industries) vs Hyundai and Toyota being the only notable companies seriously working on Fuel Cells.

As an aside, it seems like Toyota is producing FCEVs because the Japanese Government is pushing for them locally.

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintellig ... e-62160857

Japan has the world's largest hydrogen refueling network with 137 stations as of December 2020, according to Japan's Next Generation Vehicle Promotion Center. The government has set aside ¥70 billion to promote hydrogen in the fiscal year starting April, with ¥30 billion allocated to purchase subsidies of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, or FCVs, and the construction of refilling stations.

But Hyundai has stopped R&D on it's fuel cell vehicle (article dated 31 December 2021), though I assume it's still producing them.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltay ... 3542623588

The South Korean Gov is also the reason Hyundai was working on them.

[Mostlyeels]

The thing is that billions are being poured into battery research by hundreds of companies (both in the auto and Consumer Electronics industries) vs Hyundai and Toyota being the only notable companies seriously working on Fuel Cells.

As an aside, it seems like Toyota is producing FCEVs because the Japanese Government is pushing for them locally.

https://www.spglobal.com/marketintellig ... e-62160857

Japan has the world's largest hydrogen refueling network with 137 stations as of December 2020, according to Japan's Next Generation Vehicle Promotion Center. The government has set aside ¥70 billion to promote hydrogen in the fiscal year starting April, with ¥30 billion allocated to purchase subsidies of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, or FCVs, and the construction of refilling stations.

But Hyundai has stopped R&D on it's fuel cell vehicle (article dated 31 December 2021), though I assume it's still producing them.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltay ... 3542623588

The South Korean Gov is also the reason Hyundai was working on them.

Ah yep, figures. We have a small fleet of them here in the ACT (government owned) and a refuelling station. I guess they'll all be returned to Hyundai once the pilot period has finished.

[Zynerji]

We talked about liquid electrolyte batteries that could be "recharged" by swapping pods for fresh juice at pit stops.

Redox flow AI tech improvements...
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac ... er.0c00768

Can anyone remember what the single point failure was on that tech?

[mzso]

I'm a free man. I can like and yell whatever I like, regardless of what the world is blatantly doing. What privilege does anyone have to deny my right to that?

You contradict yourself when you do that meanwhile you're pushing for ICE. A good degree of cognitive dissonance.

I'm a LNG supporter for F1 in pods for refueling. How does that pressure compare?

Methane is near as bad as hydrogen. Practically the second worse gas. Alkanes only start looking good for storage with propane/butane.

(supercap bank for braking/launching only).

That's still a lot of weight because of their very poor energy density.

The new V6 will probably we there till at least 2040.

I wouldn't bet on it. Trends are changing at an accelerated rate right now. I think the V6 will look backward soon after the new PU formula is deployed.

Still mad that I have an opinion different than yours...

Full EV F1, while inevitable, is not interesting or compelling. It will kill my Fandom, and I'm assuming there are others that feel similar.

But don't worry. You can gloat and feel great about yourself after it's all implemented exactly as you feel best.

I often wonder how people come to claim to "have a different opinion" when proven wrong...

I'm sure you will find any number of excuses and blame for others when the ratings tank after the sport runs out of gas.

You mean like it did in the early two thousands? The racing got increasingly garbage, yet the ratings didn't tank.
The new regs can only help. As for electrification. As for the low number of loud whiners, I doubt they'll make a difference, especially since they watch F1 no matter what, by the looks of it. There were so many so wretched years.

[mzso]

Turbocharging an ICE increases power density, but unless the fuel has the energy density that prevents the space and weight savings to benefit the smaller package, the overall change is not much.

What fuel in combination with this experimental fuel cell is going to be able to power a Formula 1 car as well as the current combination of power sources and fuels without adding more weight, issues, etc?

What is "going to be able to power a Formula 1 car as well as the current combination of power sources and fuels" supposed to mean?
As it is it's nonsensical.

If you plainly mean what fuel would the SOFC would use it would be butane or propane, such as bioLPG.

[Airshifter]

Turbocharging an ICE increases power density, but unless the fuel has the energy density that prevents the space and weight savings to benefit the smaller package, the overall change is not much.

What fuel in combination with this experimental fuel cell is going to be able to power a Formula 1 car as well as the current combination of power sources and fuels without adding more weight, issues, etc?

What is "going to be able to power a Formula 1 car as well as the current combination of power sources and fuels" supposed to mean?
As it is it's nonsensical.

If you plainly mean what fuel would the SOFC would use it would be butane or propane, such as bioLPG.

It's not nonsensical at all, as you've answered part of it already.

So you're saying that the packaging for this SOFC, along with the butane or propane, into a car would deliver the same power for the same distance, all while not adding any extra weight, bulk, or more severe fuel storage hazards than the cars currently have?

Just as with road cars, the entire package has to be considered and made to work for the application. I'm no expert on fuel cells but all initial reports I've seen regarding FCEV's on the market today fail horribly when power demands are up, and even at modest speeds are not as efficient as claimed. Even with alternate fuels and a new fuel cell, getting all that packaged into a race car is still going to at a minimum add weight and decrease performance. Even the current hybrid systems are adding weight, and they aren't making nearly as much power.

I'm not saying it will never happen, but I've yet to see anything to convince me that it's a "here and now" available alternative.

[djos]

It's not nonsensical at all, as you've answered part of it already.

So you're saying that the packaging for this SOFC, along with the butane or propane, into a car would deliver the same power for the same distance, all while not adding any extra weight, bulk, or more severe fuel storage hazards than the cars currently have?

Just as with road cars, the entire package has to be considered and made to work for the application. I'm no expert on fuel cells but all initial reports I've seen regarding FCEV's on the market today fail horribly when power demands are up, and even at modest speeds are not as efficient as claimed. Even with alternate fuels and a new fuel cell, getting all that packaged into a race car is still going to at a minimum add weight and decrease performance. Even the current hybrid systems are adding weight, and they aren't making nearly as much power.

I'm not saying it will never happen, but I've yet to see anything to convince me that it's a "here and now" available alternative.

I agree, Fuel Cells (like batteries) are not new technology and have been around since the 1930s, however, they have never been able to make the big energy and cost leaps forward that Battery tech has since the 80's. They weren't considered to be practical for use until Tom Bacon made a big breakthrough in the 50's that leapfrogged it over battery tech of the day.

EDIT: And Fuel Cell power output is quite poor compared to modern batteries, the Toyota Mirai unit cant supply more than 90kW of power (and needs a battery to buffer power), compare that to the battery in one of the worst EV's of all time, the Nissan Leaf, which can sustain 80kW output. Then at the other end of the scale is the Tesla Model S Plaid battery which can output over 700kW under optimal conditions.

[Pat Pending]

V8 baby! - https://hydrogen-central.com/yamaha-v8- ... its-water/