Car launches: what's the use in hiding?

[timbo]

With the RB18 fiasco (no pun at FIA intended) the point was raised many times by RedBull's defenders that there is no sense in "revealing all the secrets" before other teams.
Indeed, the teams were always secretive during the launches. Ferrari had put shrouds over diffusers in the early 00s, the launch spec of F2002 lacked the winglets and flip-ups in front of the rear wheels. The front wings shown were often from the previous year's car.
The change of regulation makes this situation especially sensitive, however, how much can be realistically be copied, given a headstart of only two weeks or so, before all the cars will hit the track?

[AeroDynamic]

don't know, but im looking forward to the footage of all the drivers looking at each others car intensely

[siskue2005]

don't know, but im looking forward to the footage of all the drivers looking at each others car intensely

The teams have expensive cameras and hire people to get all angles of the car, the drivers can physically see everything.
So ultimately its just the fans who dont get to see anything.
So whats the use, i really dont know

[SmallSoldier]

With the RB18 fiasco (no pun at FIA intended) the point was raised many times by RedBull's defenders that there is no sense in "revealing all the secrets" before other teams.
Indeed, the teams were always secretive during the launches. Ferrari had put shrouds over diffusers in the early 00s, the launch spec of F2002 lacked the winglets and flip-ups in front of the rear wheels. The front wings shown were often from the previous year's car.
The change of regulation makes this situation especially sensitive, however, how much can be realistically be copied, given a headstart of only two weeks or so, before all the cars will hit the track?

Because those 3-4 weeks can create a lasting (and important) advantage… The Teams have very smart people and they could easily spot something that wasn’t even on their radar.

Yes, it would take several weeks (or months) for a team to be able to use another’s solution (from analysis, design, validation, manufacturing, testing to finally get to the track)… Delaying that could mean having an advantage for 2-3 more races during the season… I would hide the solutions too

[Dee]

With the RB18 fiasco (no pun at FIA intended) the point was raised many times by RedBull's defenders that there is no sense in "revealing all the secrets" before other teams.
Indeed, the teams were always secretive during the launches. Ferrari had put shrouds over diffusers in the early 00s, the launch spec of F2002 lacked the winglets and flip-ups in front of the rear wheels. The front wings shown were often from the previous year's car.
The change of regulation makes this situation especially sensitive, however, how much can be realistically be copied, given a headstart of only two weeks or so, before all the cars will hit the track?

Aren't there homolgation dates from the first grand prix so if you want to keep your advantage in an era where regulations are so restrictive, lower teams have more testing time and people have a 3D copy made in a week, you better keep your cards hidden until then

[cplchanb]

with all the rapid prototyping they can do these days it behooves them to keep everything hidden until the very last minute.
However it is disingenuous to the fans when the team call it their car launch and they just roll out a repainted generic F1 showcar.
RB hyped up everyone with !!!!!!!RB-18!!! !!!!!!!!! but we were all disappointed.

[AnthonyG]

We can't blame teams to be secretive, but we can blame them to provide misguiding information. The solution is that FOM can enforce a code of conduct where a car launch has to be a car and if it's just the livery on a show car, it should be called a livery launch...

[timbo]

Because those 3-4 weeks can create a lasting (and important) advantage… The Teams have very smart people and they could easily spot something that wasn’t even on their radar.

Yes, it would take several weeks (or months) for a team to be able to use another’s solution (from analysis, design, validation, manufacturing, testing to finally get to the track)… Delaying that could mean having an advantage for 2-3 more races during the season… I would hide the solutions too

Let's look at the precedents. In my memory, there were two key innovations that were subject to widespread and rapid copying.
First is the double diffuser. IIRC Renault was the quickest to catch on and debuted their version at the fourth(?) GP - presumably, because they had their own double diff in the quite developed form and should only modify it. It took half a season for Ferrari and RBR to present their version.
The second is F-duct. The earliest was Sauber, somewhere about fourth or fifth GP, again if I recall correctly.

So indeed, it would seem reasonable to hide some things.

But I also would like to point out some things which apparently offered a clear advantage but teams were slow on the uptake. First is the top radiator entry pioneered by Ferrari. It debuted in 2017, and most teams followed the trend next year (with a few exceptions), but nobody was able to copy the setup during the season. The same thing goes for the narrow nose pioneered by Mercedes.
For both innovations, the problem appears to be a crash test requirement.

And I also should point out, that with the limited wind tunnel and CFD allocations and a budget cap, the capacity for copying others is greatly reduced.

[timbo]

By the way, Ferrari launched their 2002 and 2003 cars before the season, but the actual cars didn't make their debut at the first race.
Sure some details were hidden, but the actual new car was shown.

[SmallSoldier]

Because those 3-4 weeks can create a lasting (and important) advantage… The Teams have very smart people and they could easily spot something that wasn’t even on their radar.

Yes, it would take several weeks (or months) for a team to be able to use another’s solution (from analysis, design, validation, manufacturing, testing to finally get to the track)… Delaying that could mean having an advantage for 2-3 more races during the season… I would hide the solutions too

Let's look at the precedents. In my memory, there were two key innovations that were subject to widespread and rapid copying.
First is the double diffuser. IIRC Renault was the quickest to catch on and debuted their version at the fourth(?) GP - presumably, because they had their own double diff in the quite developed form and should only modify it. It took half a season for Ferrari and RBR to present their version.
The second is F-duct. The earliest was Sauber, somewhere about fourth or fifth GP, again if I recall correctly.

So indeed, it would seem reasonable to hide some things.

But I also would like to point out some things which apparently offered a clear advantage but teams were slow on the uptake. First is the top radiator entry pioneered by Ferrari. It debuted in 2017, and most teams followed the trend next year (with a few exceptions), but nobody was able to copy the setup during the season. The same thing goes for the narrow nose pioneered by Mercedes.
For both innovations, the problem appears to be a crash test requirement.

And I also should point out, that with the limited wind tunnel and CFD allocations and a budget cap, the capacity for copying others is greatly reduced.

A lot of variables to determine whether a solution could quickly be adapted by a Team, it would depend on the solution itself… But there is no reason for the teams to lose any potential advantage by showing their innovations early… Why would they? It wouldn’t benefit them at all and in an sport where teams spend millions in gaining tenths of a second worth of performance, it would be rather silly to potentially help another one in any shape or form… The only reason would be to satiate our curiosity?… We will ultimately see those innovations in a few more weeks when testing starts in Bahrain (we may not even see all innovations in Barcelona).

In relation to the examples you provided, you also have to take into account the tools at the disposal of the teams today compared to 10-20 years ago, between the computational power to run a quick analysis on the potential benefits to a part, to their capacity to 3D print very quickly those parts for testing, the solutions can be copied quicker than they do today… Specially if a solution is rather unique and something that wasn’t considered or imagined by a team (for example, last year during testing when Mercedes brought their floor with the interesting curves on the edge, James Key was quick to mention that it was something that were going to look into, which I’m sure a lot of teams actually did).

You asked initially what is the use of “hiding” parts, it’s simply not providing any information that could help your competitors… A better question is, why wouldn’t they?

[timbo]

A lot of variables to determine whether a solution could quickly be adapted by a Team, it would depend on the solution itself… But there is no reason for the teams to lose any potential advantage by showing their innovations early… Why would they? It wouldn’t benefit them at all and in an sport where teams spend millions in gaining tenths of a second worth of performance, it would be rather silly to potentially help another one in any shape or form… The only reason would be to satiate our curiosity?… We will ultimately see those innovations in a few more weeks when testing starts in Bahrain (we may not even see all innovations in Barcelona).

OK, but why did they hold launches at all then? Surely there is a PR profit at least.

In relation to the examples you provided, you also have to take into account the tools at the disposal of the teams today compared to 10-20 years ago, between the computational power to run a quick analysis on the potential benefits to a part, to their capacity to 3D print very quickly those parts for testing, the solutions can be copied quicker than they do today…

Good point, but back then they had unlimited wind-tunnel time and could test things on actual track to their hearts (and pockets) content.

You asked initially what is the use of “hiding” parts, it’s simply not providing any information that could help your competitors… A better question is, why wouldn’t they?

Yes, but we have had car launches for years.

In two weeks time all teams will be in Barcelona.

[SmallSoldier]

A lot of variables to determine whether a solution could quickly be adapted by a Team, it would depend on the solution itself… But there is no reason for the teams to lose any potential advantage by showing their innovations early… Why would they? It wouldn’t benefit them at all and in an sport where teams spend millions in gaining tenths of a second worth of performance, it would be rather silly to potentially help another one in any shape or form… The only reason would be to satiate our curiosity?… We will ultimately see those innovations in a few more weeks when testing starts in Bahrain (we may not even see all innovations in Barcelona).

OK, but why did they hold launches at all then? Surely there is a PR profit at least.

In relation to the examples you provided, you also have to take into account the tools at the disposal of the teams today compared to 10-20 years ago, between the computational power to run a quick analysis on the potential benefits to a part, to their capacity to 3D print very quickly those parts for testing, the solutions can be copied quicker than they do today…

Good point, but back then they had unlimited wind-tunnel time and could test things on actual track to their hearts (and pockets) content.

You asked initially what is the use of “hiding” parts, it’s simply not providing any information that could help your competitors… A better question is, why wouldn’t they?

Yes, but we have had car launches for years.

In two weeks time all teams will be in Barcelona.

The launches are exactly that… a PR effort, it is about the liveries more than the cars themselves, it is about the Sponsors, it is about creating buzz for themselves and their partners and in that basis, they achieve their goals, for a day they are the talk in Motorsports (I say a day, because whomever launches next takes the spotlight)… Today it was all about Red Bull, tomorrow will be all about Aston Martin and Friday will be all about McLaren.

Again, I am failing to understand the point… You ask what is the use in hiding? I’ve tried to give you a few reasons why… It’s all about competitive advantage and trying to maintain for as long as possible.

In regards to Barcelona, yes, all teams will be there, but the rumor mill is that several teams will be bringing a rather basic car to the “Shakedown” (I hate that term for the first week of testing) and won’t be bringing their complete solutions to the track (still hiding parts) until Bahrain.

[timbo]

The launches are exactly that… a PR effort, it is about the liveries more than the cars themselves, it is about the Sponsors, it is about creating buzz for themselves and their partners and in that basis, they achieve their goals, for a day they are the talk in Motorsports (I say a day, because whomever launches next takes the spotlight)… Today it was all about Red Bull, tomorrow will be all about Aston Martin and Friday will be all about McLaren.

But that effect is based on the reveal of an actual car. I doubt the response would be as much if all they did was akin to what Red Bull did.

Again, I am failing to understand the point… You ask what is the use in hiding? I’ve tried to give you a few reasons why… It’s all about competitive advantage and trying to maintain for as long as possible.

In regards to Barcelona, yes, all teams will be there, but the rumor mill is that several teams will be bringing a rather basic car to the “Shakedown” (I hate that term for the first week of testing) and won’t be bringing their complete solutions to the track (still hiding parts) until Bahrain.

OK, to further expand on my point.
How much benefit can make a two-week headstart could give in a current would of limited testing and a budget cap?
And also, I think we can all understand not showing finer details, but not showing the general car? Just how innovative can one be in this day and age within rather prescriptive rules?

[SmallSoldier]

The launches are exactly that… a PR effort, it is about the liveries more than the cars themselves, it is about the Sponsors, it is about creating buzz for themselves and their partners and in that basis, they achieve their goals, for a day they are the talk in Motorsports (I say a day, because whomever launches next takes the spotlight)… Today it was all about Red Bull, tomorrow will be all about Aston Martin and Friday will be all about McLaren.

But that effect is based on the reveal of an actual car. I doubt the response would be as much if all they did was akin to what Red Bull did.

Again, I am failing to understand the point… You ask what is the use in hiding? I’ve tried to give you a few reasons why… It’s all about competitive advantage and trying to maintain for as long as possible.

In regards to Barcelona, yes, all teams will be there, but the rumor mill is that several teams will be bringing a rather basic car to the “Shakedown” (I hate that term for the first week of testing) and won’t be bringing their complete solutions to the track (still hiding parts) until Bahrain.

OK, to further expand on my point.
How much benefit can make a two-week headstart could give in a current would of limited testing and a budget cap?
And also, I think we can all understand not showing finer details, but not showing the general car? Just how innovative can one be in this day and age within rather prescriptive rules?

The effect of the launch is eyes on the car / livery and they are achieving that… I’m sure that for a very large portion of the fans, they don’t even know that the car RBR showed today is actually the FOM’s show car… We (the ones that find the technical part of F1 fascinating and therefore belong to a forum like this one) quickly realize that it is just a show car and are disappointed that we didn’t get to see their actual car.

The teams will get any benefit they can, whether it is one, two or more… We will find out how innovative one can be within this new rules pretty soon, the sidepods of the Haas have already made a lot of noise and is one of their first iterations in terms of design. There are talks that Ferrari has some aggressive aero ideas on their car.

Furthermore, the teams development rate of the teams is so high that I wouldn’t be surprised if they are still working on parts and not have finished cars just yet, they will try to go as close as possible to the last minute to try and have the latest iteration for testing / first race… But there is no reason for them to try and finish a car way too early, because that would mean that they haven’t pushed hard enough.

[Just_a_fan]

The effect of the launch is eyes on the car / livery and they are achieving that… I’m sure that for a very large portion of the fans, they don’t even know that the car RBR showed today is actually the FOM’s show car…

Looking around t'web, it appears that you may be wrong there. There are lots of posts in various forums, facebook, twitter, etc., where people are decrying Red Bull's actions in calling this the launch of the RB18.There is a lot of bad feeling about it.

Sure, some are doing the whole "Ooh, look, a car. Car goes brrmm, brrmm" idiocy. Sadly, they are the same sorts that Liberty seems to want to attract and appears to listen to when they ask opinions for F1's future.