tyre graining

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Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: tyre graining

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Agreed, timbo. I'm not sure I'd call the tire on the right blistered, either.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Birel99
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006, 02:06
Location: Northern USA

Re: tyre graining

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Image

I think this is a grain because of the way it "crest's" like a wave.

That is a front tyre from my kart. I punish my front tyres when I drive.
My front end is set up reletively soft and I also run reletively low tyre pressure compared to other drivers I know.

How can I get rid of this grain?

Is graining the same as overheating the surface of the tyre?

Thank you,

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: tyre graining

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THAT, is indeed the beginnings of light graining. Graining is not necessarily the same as overheating, though the two can be linked.

How to avoid it? Don't punish your front tires. Once the tires saturate, don't push them any harder. You don't gain anything. Hard habit to break. Back off on the wheel angle.

What is the balance of the kart? If it's way to understeer, either adjust driving style or change pressures and whatever else you have on the kart to free it up.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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ernos5
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Re: tyre graining

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well wouldn't Alonso have this graining issue lots during his Renault days as his steering angle was definately more then enough in those understeer-setup cars. :wtf:

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Birel99
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Location: Northern USA

Re: tyre graining

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Thank you Jersey Tom!

The balance on this set of tyres was very good.

I do think that most of it is in my driving style...

What do you mean, when the tyre "saturates"?

Thanks again,

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
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Re: tyre graining

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ernos5 wrote:well wouldn't Alonso have this graining issue lots during his Renault days as his steering angle was definately more then enough in those understeer-setup cars. :wtf:
According to who?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: tyre graining

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Jersey Tom wrote:
ernos5 wrote:well wouldn't Alonso have this graining issue lots during his Renault days as his steering angle was definately more then enough in those understeer-setup cars. :wtf:
According to who?
According to the articles centered around the change to Bridgestones in 2007.

If I recall, Kubica, Alonso and Trulli were stated to have the most abusive snap-steering drivers on the Michelins, and there was concern about them adapting to the "new" Bridgestones, since they would not tolerate the abuse.

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: tyre graining

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Steering quickly is one thing. Steering the tire well past peak is another. I'd be surprised if any F1 drivers did the latter.

Once the tire saturates, that's all it's got. It's a natural habit to try to steer more and more in the hope of finding more grip, but it will just beat up the tires. I would imagine most professional, highly experienced drivers would be able to feel that saturation point fairly well.

Though admittedly, Hamilton does work the fronts pretty severely when he's pushing. You can clearly see the tires worn bad. Can't see if they're grained or not.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: tyre graining

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Jersey Tom wrote:Steering quickly is one thing. Steering the tire well past peak is another. I'd be surprised if any F1 drivers did the latter.

Once the tire saturates, that's all it's got. It's a natural habit to try to steer more and more in the hope of finding more grip, but it will just beat up the tires. I would imagine most professional, highly experienced drivers would be able to feel that saturation point fairly well.

Though admittedly, Hamilton does work the fronts pretty severely when he's pushing. You can clearly see the tires worn bad. Can't see if they're grained or not.

If you over-push in rFactor, you can hear the tyres whine as you beat them...

It was something that driving the kart mods actually helped me with, since if you pushed past the saturation, it starts acting like a wedge... Like hitting a rock on a skateboard...

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: tyre graining

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Jersey Tom wrote:I've met Paul.. and I've seen the book. Still not graining :) But I'm not sure if I can get into what it is. His book isn't bad, but take a lot of it with a grain of salt.

The spacing and regularity of those "grooves" are what gives it away. Plus you can see the rubber between them looks pretty much just fine.

Regarding what graining is.. I think of it as exceeding the tear strength of the material. Overstressing and abrading it and tearing it up. Can happen cold ("cold tearing") or hot ("graining") depending on the material properties.
Well, if you don't believe "Paul", perhaps you'll believe Bridgestone:
Tyre graining happens when the side-forces on the tyre cause the surface rubber to roll up and present a non-uniform contact patch with the road, which affects the grip level.”
Interview with Hirohide Hamashima, Bridgestone Motorsport Director of Motorsport Tyre Development

Another example, light graining around the grooves. You can notice the jagged edges of rubber where it rolled up:

Image

Now, is Mr. Hamashima also wrong? ;)

About the picture by Birel,I don't think underinflation is the cause: normally is high pressure what causes graining.

Maybe you're lifting too much the inner rear wheel. Kart tyres, unlike car tyres, do not react well to large angles of attack. If you lift too much the rear inner wheel, you're pushing too hard the front ones. Normally, this happens when the chassis is too flexible. Perhaps you could try to use spacers to widen the rear track (move the rear hubs outward) and make harder to lift the rear, or you could reduce caster (but, as you probably know, that caster reduction would affect the initial turn in).

Another reason could be the track. If most of it is high speed, but it has a slow part, that could be it: you're arriving with cool (relatively speaking) tyres to a demanding location. Think of heating the tyres a bit before the slow corners.
Ciro

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Birel99
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006, 02:06
Location: Northern USA

Re: tyre graining

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Ciro, My chassis is indeed very soft. I run minimum castor with a very rigid rear axle. The circuit is also very fast with one slow hairpin! So am I just steering right past the optimum slip angle? Also, could I try and swirve left to right before the hair pin?

Thank you,

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: tyre graining

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Birel -

Can be many things. One way or another, you are overstressing the tire rubber. Could be from running too soft a compound, could be from "overdriving" the tires well past their peak value. Could be overheating. Could be a combination.

Ciro -

That snip from Bridgestone is correct... however, that is NOT what is happening in the Haney photo.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Birel99
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Joined: 14 Nov 2006, 02:06
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Re: tyre graining

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Sorry to bring back an old thread.

This is a picture of a rear tyre off my kart. I know that there is most likely a big difference between reading kart tyres and car tyres but ill ask anyway.

The kart had alot of understeer into the corner, the front tyres had bad graining, at mid corner and mid exit the back end was still very very planted, then on fast/ high load corners the back would overload and snap loose. The track is very green and abrasive. What is causing this tyre to look the way it does? I have never had a kart do this before.

Image

Kind regards,

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: tyre graining

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Tire looks great to me.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Nealio
Nealio
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Joined: 03 Feb 2009, 18:35

Re: tyre graining

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birel99, I would suggest that your kart suspension is too stiff in lateral load transfer at the front. Correct this and experiment with increasing the pressures in your front tires to achieve a balanced chassis. This will decrease the understeer on turn-in and the snap-oversteer on exit. Jersey is correct about your rear tires. The slight irregular surface show just the start of graining, a sure sign that you are using the tires too the max. The front tires show the graining caused by overheating due to under-inflation and improperly set suspension.