2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
01 Mar 2022, 00:23
It just occurred to me that in some racing series they use Bump-stops to control minimum ride height. How easy would it be for F1 teams to do the same?

eg:
https://www.resuspension.com/news/post/ ... thy-level/
“NASCAR was the first to do it,” he said. “We figured out that if we took all the spring rate out of the front and set the car down on the bump stops, we would keep a lower dynamic platform, which was better for aero and everything else. When we took those cars and tried to make them more like go-karts, we figured out that they worked better because, as the car travels up and down, your camber
curves and dynamic wedge numbers change. When we can take those variables out of the equation, the car works better. The car’s lower so the center of gravity is better, and the aero becomes more stable.”

The end result functions much like a dual rate or stacked spring setup might, but this approach allows for more dramatic changes than springs can typically provide. “The problem is that the rate split that we need is often very hard to do with a typical dual rate
spring,” Enders added. “And because we need to travel these cars so far, packaging can become an issue with a stacked setup. This approach is compact and easy to tune.”
Apparently no one likes my bump-stop theory?
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ojir19
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Joined: 21 Feb 2022, 07:40

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alfa ... g/8603114/
Teams were forced to make changes to the set-up of their cars through the first test to get the issue under control, including raising the ride height and adjusting the design of their floors.

Monchaux said he expected teams would have to set up their cars “slightly higher than we all thought at the beginning” because of the porpoising issue.

“The question will be how much higher, it is 3-5mm, or is it 20?” he said. “I hope it’s going to be five, because then the rework on the car will be less. But we’ll see.”
“I think in two or three races, nobody will speak again about bouncing,” Vasseur said.
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JonoNic
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Joined: 05 Mar 2015, 15:54

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Is there a way to use vortices (maybe from the FW) to stall (not energize) the venturi tunnels at high speed? A speed higher than that used in the fastest corner in F1? Would that stop the porpoising at high speed and keep the efficiency in the slower parts of the track?

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piast9
piast9
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 00:16
Apparently no one likes my bump-stop theory?
I am pretty sure they would be illegal. Suspension may consist only of springs and dampers. I am not sure if bump-stop would be considered as a spring.

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djos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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piast9 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 11:13
djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 00:16
Apparently no one likes my bump-stop theory?
I am pretty sure they would be illegal. Suspension may consist only of springs and dampers. I am not sure if bump-stop would be considered as a spring.
Surely they would be legal as otherwise suspension systems would have a hard stop which could result in broken suspension when hitting curbs or other large bumps.
"In downforce we trust"

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 11:48
piast9 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 11:13
djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 00:16
Apparently no one likes my bump-stop theory?
I am pretty sure they would be illegal. Suspension may consist only of springs and dampers. I am not sure if bump-stop would be considered as a spring.
Surely they would be legal as otherwise suspension systems would have a hard stop which could result in broken suspension when hitting curbs or other large bumps.
When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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A bump stop is very much a spring. It can have a rate greater than the weight of the car above it or be progressive.

A bump stop is not a torsion spring, but all vehicles have a way to limit bump travel and using a shock to do it is the most expensive way to do it.

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vorticism
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Joined: 01 Mar 2022, 20:20

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Big Tea wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:55

When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
Yes, f.e. notice the red bushings here:

Image

Image
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djos
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Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Big Tea wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:55
djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 11:48
piast9 wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 11:13

I am pretty sure they would be illegal. Suspension may consist only of springs and dampers. I am not sure if bump-stop would be considered as a spring.
Surely they would be legal as otherwise suspension systems would have a hard stop which could result in broken suspension when hitting curbs or other large bumps.
When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
NASCAR bump stops look like this:

Image

And are basically small progressive rate springs.
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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 22:59
Big Tea wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:55
djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 11:48


Surely they would be legal as otherwise suspension systems would have a hard stop which could result in broken suspension when hitting curbs or other large bumps.
When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
NASCAR bump stops look like this:

https://www.resuspension.com/pub/media ... rticle.jpg

And are basically small progressive rate springs.
Yeh, the old model Mini with hydroelestic suspension had them. Needed then too :mrgreen:

Image
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djos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Big Tea wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 23:49
djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 22:59
Big Tea wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 16:55


When a damper runs out of movement, doesn't it have 'rubber' final stop?
NASCAR bump stops look like this:

https://www.resuspension.com/pub/media ... rticle.jpg

And are basically small progressive rate springs.
Yeh, the old model Mini with hydroelestic suspension had them. Needed then too :mrgreen:

http://www.minispares.com/image.axd?typ ... AM2764.jpg
Classic! :mrgreen:
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henry
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Joined: 23 Feb 2004, 20:49
Location: England

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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No matter how stiff they make the suspension the tyres are still going to flex. Many of the tools they might have used in the past to control tyre oscillations have been taken away by the new regs.

When I watch the video of the Ferrari porpoising it seems to me there is significant deflection of the tyres, particularly the rear*. It will be hard for the teams to prevent this using the suspension and so aero cunning would seem the more likely fix.

*I may be seeing what I expect to see.
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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
03 Mar 2022, 01:34
Big Tea wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 23:49
djos wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 22:59


NASCAR bump stops look like this:

https://www.resuspension.com/pub/media ... rticle.jpg

And are basically small progressive rate springs.
Yeh, the old model Mini with hydroelestic suspension had them. Needed then too :mrgreen:

http://www.minispares.com/image.axd?typ ... AM2764.jpg
Classic! :mrgreen:
They worked very well actually. The conical shape means that with more travel there is more material to compress and it becomes (sort of) scaled to the impact
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vorticism
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Joined: 01 Mar 2022, 20:20

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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henry wrote:
03 Mar 2022, 10:26
No matter how stiff they make the suspension the tyres are still going to flex.
Image
Last edited by vorticism on 03 Mar 2022, 19:24, edited 1 time in total.
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SiLo
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Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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The tyrewalls are still very big even though they have moved to 18inch rims. So yes there will still be significant flex and movement vertically. It's likely better to solve it aerodynamically.
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