Formula JDP proposal.

[Zynerji]

Formula JDP (Junior Driver Program).

Sponsor: F1, F1 Teams, Netflix?

Intent: Create a series using a modified F1 car from a few years ago contracted by a single F1 team. This would include the addition of the Halo and the F1 crash testing requirements for the chassis. Drivers are provided by the F1 team's Junior Driver Programs. Engines should be greatly simplified, but powerful and inexpensive.

The rules would be pretty simple. The teams are allowed to provide data to the driver upon request, and the changes to the setup of the car can only be ordered by the driver, with quick-adjust hydraulic suspension settings, camber, toe, and castor being the only tools available for platform control. Then they have the front/rear wing settings to trim the package. This would focus the entire series on developing the drivers and their understanding of how best to extract performance from their cars. The team can debrief the driver all that they would like between races and test them again at the next event.

Who is this REALLY for? The young drivers, the Fans, and F1. There is FAR too much emerging talent standing in the pits on Sunday. After F2, there is a huge gap to the performance of F1. This would give the driver's a mid-point where they can gain experience for themselves and generate more entertainment for the fans.

My dream car combination:

MP4-23 with DRS, halo, and fully decoupled, simplified hydraulic suspension.
Cosworth built Chevrolet 3.7L L5 (stock bottom end) with centrifugal supercharger (2BARmax). E85+
Spec 3rd party gearbox 6speed sequential (F1 team or Box manufacturer).
2021 Pirelli 13" tyres. Carbon/Ceramic brakes.

I estimate it would cost about 50M to set up, but WOW would it be fun!

PS: This isn't for a championship that challenges F2. This is more of a TV show like the Drive to Survive. This would be Drive to Develop. It probably wouldn't even include a race, as qualifying-style hot-lapping would be better for the adjustments without practice phase.

[adrianjordan]

There is absolutely no way that engine would fit in that McLaren.

[Just_a_fan]

If it's going to be an F1 related series, why have a non-F1 engine in the back? How about the Renault V10? Now that was powerful, very noisy, and won titles. Perfect.

A 5 cylinder truck engine is not the thing one wants in a racing car. Even with a supercharger. This is the lump that was in the Hummer H3, yes?

USians, I don't know...

[Zynerji]

I think it could fit if decked and has a new head. Id be fine with a VR5 as well.

With the "truck engine". You could build one with 700hp and 600ftlbs for about $15k USD. I mean you could just LS it instead, i guess.

[adrianjordan]

I think it could fit if decked and has a new head. Id be fine with a VR5 as well.

With the "truck engine". You could build one with 700hp and 600ftlbs for about $15k USD. I mean you could just LS it instead, i guess.

You do realise that an F1 car is designed with the PU as an integral part of the car, as in it is a stressed component?

If you bolt a truck engine in, you would have to redesign the entire car. Literally the whole thing.

[Zynerji]

I think it could fit if decked and has a new head. Id be fine with a VR5 as well.

With the "truck engine". You could build one with 700hp and 600ftlbs for about $15k USD. I mean you could just LS it instead, i guess.

You do realise that an F1 car is designed with the PU as an integral part of the car, as in it is a stressed component?

If you bolt a truck engine in, you would have to redesign the entire car. Literally the whole thing.

I gota ya. Understand that this idea was about a TV series that would be about a spec car, and reserve drivers.

Honestly, they could run 2009 BrawnGP cars for all I care. The point isn't about the "Formula". That was just a daydream car combo that I threw in there to make an example.

[DiogoBrand]

I don't see the point in having the driver tell how to set up the car if that's not a driver's job anymore.
I mean, why not ask the driver to develop the aerodynamics of the car instead?

[Zynerji]

I don't see the point in having the driver tell how to set up the car if that's not a driver's job anymore.
I mean, why not ask the driver to develop the aerodynamics of the car instead?

Because it is a competition between the drivers via setup understanding. The drivers that have that engineering knowledge seem to do pretty well in F1.

It would be all about teaching drivers the important things to pay attention to, what changes effect over/under steer, mechanical grip and tyre preservation.

The cool part is that we (and young drivers) would get to learn along with them...

[jjn9128]

I think there's space for a cheap/global/single seater competition which rivals F1 but is outside the remit and influence of the FIA and automotive OEMs (by the fans for the fans) but I don't know that this is it.

[Zynerji]

I think there's space for a cheap/global/single seater competition which rivals F1 but is outside the remit and influence of the FIA and automotive OEMs (by the fans for the fans) but I don't know that this is it.

I think it would get stomped out unless it was symbiotic with F1 tho. Your thought in that post is where I started when thinking about this a few days ago. It would have to be a non-race-type junior series with tangible training benefits to the F1 teams for it to actually flourish.

[Just_a_fan]

I think there's space for a cheap/global/single seater competition which rivals F1 but is outside the remit and influence of the FIA and automotive OEMs (by the fans for the fans) but I don't know that this is it.

It would have to be at non FIA-sanctioned/approved circuits. Otherwise, the FIA would threaten to remove such approval and that would affect the circuits for the rest of the season. And as the FIA sanction series in many countries around the world, you'd be limited in places to race.

[Just_a_fan]

I think it could fit if decked and has a new head. Id be fine with a VR5 as well.

With the "truck engine". You could build one with 700hp and 600ftlbs for about $15k USD. I mean you could just LS it instead, i guess.

I think a screaming turbo 4 cylinder would be fun. Very mid-1980s.

[JordanMugen]

Cosworth built Chevrolet 3.7L L5 (stock bottom end) with centrifugal supercharger (2BARmax). E85+

Why this engine? The problem with production engines is that they are very heavy. A production 4-cylinder engine as used in classic Formula 3 weighs (considerably) more than a Formula One 2.4L V8 AFAIK, 140kg vs 85-95kg. Whereas a production V8 engine like a Ford Coyote is the best part of 195+ kg AFAIK.

We have reengineered Formula 4 cars with Ford Coyote V8s which we race in Australia called S5000 (originally they were using going to use Swift Formula Nippon tubs, but those don't have a halo), and the cars are incredibly slow, they are only marginally faster than 2000cc Formula 3 cars:


The best compromise would be something like a 600hp Judd V8 at 115kg or 720hp Judd V10 at 140kg IIRC, but then why not just race the old V8 GP2 cars (the Mechacrome V8s are a little more cost-reduced than the Judd and are thus cheaper but heavier and less powerful)?

After F2, there is a huge gap to the performance of F1.

Superfund Formula proposed exactly a category between GP2 and F1, using Judd V10 engines, but it never eventuated:

[Note: audio clipping! headphones beware]




While an independent series racing affordable Grand Prix-style cars (particularly around tracks like Imola or Sepang that miss out on the F1 calendar, albeit the pandemic means more of these circuits have got back on the calendar!) would be great to see, I just don't think there is the appetite for such a category without manufacturer involvement unfortunately.

There seems to be an apathy towards open-wheel categories below Formula One. Instead classes like touring cars or GTs seem to be more popular with spectators and sponsors.

[Also don't those wide sidepods with venturis look somehow familiar. ]

Id be fine with a VR5 as well.

VR5 has a ridiculously heavy iron block... (Also isn't the cylinder head flow complete rubbish compared to something like a Honda K20 engine? The Honda with some of the best-flowing port design (if not simply the best) of any mass production 4 to 5 cylinder car engine, whereas the VW, not so much? )

...Not withstanding that AER claim Judd's V10 is an outdated boat anchor, so engine weight is all a matter of who you ask!

LMP1 racing is dominated by ex F3000-based motors and down tuned IndyCar engines or, as AER’s managing director Mike Lancaster puts it, ‘Old Formula 1 engines… but they’re big, heavy and not very fuel efficient, so we saw a potential gap in the market.’

Plugging that gap with a lightweight, small, efficient unit incorporating F1 technology would have been a relatively straightforward task for a manufacturer-backed concern, but to deliver a cost-effective powerplant capable of taking on the ALMS’ big guns and yet remaining affordable to independents proved more of a juggling act.

‘I wanted it to be the smallest, lightest and most efficient sportscar engine out there…’ says Allan, ‘…and one that fitted into a smaller space than anything else and one that structurally used the metal in it more efficiently. And we’ve hit every one of those targets.’

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/art ... r-lmp1-v8/

I think a screaming turbo 4 cylinder would be fun. Very mid-1980s.

Somehow the AER twin-turbo V8, two four cylinder turbos joined together, sounds terrible. A very unpleasant sound compared to a Judd V10.

The 4-cylinder version of the AER in the Mazda DPi sounds pretty mediocre too for some reason. It seems that no turbos and 10 to 12 cylinders is best for a musical sound!

Speaking of failed categories between GP2 & F1, Menard Competition Technologies built a straight-forward 60-degree 4.2L V12 using modern (for ~2007) technology for the Superleague Formula class which produced 750hp and managed to hit a weight of 145kg IIRC, so only 5kg more than the Judd V10:




I wondered what happened to all these V12s?

[Jolle]

I don't see the point in having the driver tell how to set up the car if that's not a driver's job anymore.
I mean, why not ask the driver to develop the aerodynamics of the car instead?

Because it is a competition between the drivers via setup understanding. The drivers that have that engineering knowledge seem to do pretty well in F1.

It would be all about teaching drivers the important things to pay attention to, what changes effect over/under steer, mechanical grip and tyre preservation.

The cool part is that we (and young drivers) would get to learn along with them...

This is exactly what they do in junior formula's. Teams like Prema, Van Amersfoort, Carin, etc etc are specialised to learn kids that come out of karts how to set up a car and what setup does with a car and how to adopt your driving to it. They literally send young drivers out with completly a wrong setup (for instance, 10 degrees to much rear wing, or to much ride hight) and let them figure it out what's wrong.

[Zynerji]

Cosworth built Chevrolet 3.7L L5 (stock bottom end) with centrifugal supercharger (2BARmax). E85+

Why this engine? The problem with production engines is that they are very heavy. A production 4-cylinder engine as used in classic Formula 3 weighs (considerably) more than a Formula One 2.4L V8 AFAIK, 140kg vs 85-95kg. Whereas a production V8 engine like a Ford Coyote is the best part of 195+ kg AFAIK.

We have reengineered Formula 4 cars with Ford Coyote V8s which we race in Australia called S5000 (originally they were using going to use Swift Formula Nippon tubs, but those don't have a halo), and the cars are incredibly slow, they are only marginally faster than 2000cc Formula 3 cars:


The best compromise would be something like a 600hp Judd V8 at 115kg or 720hp Judd V10 at 140kg IIRC, but then why not just race the old V8 GP2 cars (the Mechacrome V8s are a little more cost-reduced than the Judd and are thus cheaper but heavier and less powerful)?

After F2, there is a huge gap to the performance of F1.

Superfund Formula proposed exactly a category between GP2 and F1, using Judd V10 engines, but it never eventuated:

[Note: audio clipping! headphones beware]

https://cdn.crash.net/styles/article/s3 ... k=X5f7b9RX
https://i.imgur.com/oQsimnW.jpg

While an independent series racing affordable Grand Prix-style cars (particularly around tracks like Imola or Sepang that miss out on the F1 calendar, albeit the pandemic means more of these circuits have got back on the calendar!) would be great to see, I just don't think there is the appetite for such a category without manufacturer involvement unfortunately.

There seems to be an apathy towards open-wheel categories below Formula One. Instead classes like touring cars or GTs seem to be more popular with spectators and sponsors.

[Also don't those wide sidepods with venturis look somehow familiar. ]

Id be fine with a VR5 as well.

VR5 has a ridiculously heavy iron block... (Also isn't the cylinder head flow complete rubbish compared to something like a Honda K20 engine? The Honda with some of the best-flowing port design (if not simply the best) of any mass production 4 to 5 cylinder car engine, whereas the VW, not so much? )

...Not withstanding that AER claim Judd's V10 is an outdated boat anchor, so engine weight is all a matter of who you ask!

LMP1 racing is dominated by ex F3000-based motors and down tuned IndyCar engines or, as AER’s managing director Mike Lancaster puts it, ‘Old Formula 1 engines… but they’re big, heavy and not very fuel efficient, so we saw a potential gap in the market.’

Plugging that gap with a lightweight, small, efficient unit incorporating F1 technology would have been a relatively straightforward task for a manufacturer-backed concern, but to deliver a cost-effective powerplant capable of taking on the ALMS’ big guns and yet remaining affordable to independents proved more of a juggling act.

‘I wanted it to be the smallest, lightest and most efficient sportscar engine out there…’ says Allan, ‘…and one that fitted into a smaller space than anything else and one that structurally used the metal in it more efficiently. And we’ve hit every one of those targets.’

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/art ... r-lmp1-v8/

I think a screaming turbo 4 cylinder would be fun. Very mid-1980s.

Somehow the AER twin-turbo V8, two four cylinder turbos joined together, sounds terrible. A very unpleasant sound compared to a Judd V10.

The 4-cylinder version of the AER in the Mazda DPi sounds pretty mediocre too for some reason. It seems that no turbos and 10 to 12 cylinders is best for a musical sound!

Speaking of failed categories between GP2 & F1, Menard Competition Technologies built a straight-forward 60-degree 4.2L V12 using modern (for ~2007) technology for the Superleague Formula class which produced 750hp and managed to hit a weight of 145kg IIRC, so only 5kg more than the Judd V10:


http://www.f1album.com/albums/misc/bloo ... D3-42c.jpg

I wondered what happened to all these V12s?

Sure. It wasn't a mandate, it was a "dream car" of my personal preference. A cheap v8 would do just fine.