Whats the difference

[NathanOlder]

Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

At Silverstone, the contact occurred well before the apex. The apex is where that pretty red and white kerbing is in the distance.

I stand corrected, I should've said: Lewis would have missed the apex.

But there is nothing at all in the rules to say he has to make the apex. So he cant fall foul of a rule that isnt there. All I have ever heard is that if you are level going in to the braking zone, you don't have to give way.

[NathanOlder]

Here's a thread that will only end up locked.

Well at the moment its civilized and being discussed. If some users come in and start with the trolling bs, then yes Im sure it will be closed. If people have different opinions, then please explain . Its not too much to ask is it ?

[hollus]

Is it reasonable to expect referees (stewards) exposed to a similar borderline situation to make the same call?
These are different stewards 10 years apart, with different types of cars.

If you watch a soccer game from last week and from 10 years ago, the amount of contact and pushing allowed is very different. Even two soccer games from last week, one in Spain and one in England, look like they are played to different rule books, referee calls included.

The rule book is exactly the same in both places, though.

I think expecting that level of consistency is unrealistic.

A possible wrong call by a sports referee? Shocking!

[Just_a_fan]

Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

At Silverstone, the contact occurred well before the apex. The apex is where that pretty red and white kerbing is in the distance.

I stand corrected, I should've said: Lewis would have missed the apex.

You should buy a lottery ticket if you can see the future.

[Aesop]

At Silverstone, the contact occurred well before the apex. The apex is where that pretty red and white kerbing is in the distance.

I stand corrected, I should've said: Lewis would have missed the apex.

But there is nothing at all in the rules to say he has to make the apex. So he cant fall foul of a rule that isnt there. All I have ever heard is that if you are level going in to the braking zone, you don't have to give way.

The question was what the difference was, not what the rules said.
In Silverstone Lewis could've avoided the contact, there was enough space, but chose not to. Wolff made that clear. That's why he was penalized, stewards found him predominantly at fault. Massa on the other hand shut the door and the only way Lewis could've avoided contact was by by massive braking or leaving the track. Therefor Massa was predominantly to blame.

My interpretation

[Just_a_fan]

I stand corrected, I should've said: Lewis would have missed the apex.

But there is nothing at all in the rules to say he has to make the apex. So he cant fall foul of a rule that isnt there. All I have ever heard is that if you are level going in to the braking zone, you don't have to give way.

The question was what the difference was, not what the rules said.
In Silverstone Lewis could've avoided the contact, there was enough space, but chose not to. Wolff made that clear. That's why he was penalized, stewards found him predominantly at fault. Massa on the other hand shut the door and the only way Lewis could've avoided contact was by by massive braking or leaving the track. Therefor Massa was predominantly to blame.

My interpretation

Without wishing to reopen the entire can of worms, Max could just as easily have avoided the contact - just as Lewis had only two corners before. Going in to the corner, Lewis was along side and then Max attempted to take it around the outside by carrying more speed than he had in qualifying and in doing so had to turn in or he'd have been somewhere on Whittlebury Golf Course as he washed wide . That was his choice and he ended up paying the price for it.

[Oleo]

Pretty much this:
Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

Well the 2 photos I posted show that both times at the point of contact, there was space on the inside and neither of the incidents had even reached the apex.

There is no space for 1 car on the inside of Massa's line, Verstappen clearly does leave space (disclaimer: red lines may not be 100% accurate, so dont nitpick on it, the difference if obvious and clear):



2011 is probably a racing incident or small penalty for Massa. Hamilton makes a move that does not really fit in that corner, having to slow his car more due to a bad corner attack angle, Massa cuts his opponent off and does not leave enough space, possibly due to not seeing him properly or assuming the other guy will back out due to having that bad angle.
2021 is clearly mostly the fault of Hamilton. Verstappen is somewhat enthousiastically taking the outside line, but leaves more than enough space for his opponent. Hamilton takes too much speed into the corner and cannot hold the inside line, hitting his opponent on the back wheel.

[dans79]

assuming the other guy will back out

Imo, this played a big part in 2021 as well.

Specially when you consider Lewis said this.

http://www.silverarrows.net/news/lewis- ... n-a-bully/

“I think Max is aggressive as hell,” Hamilton said.

“And more often than not, he pushes it to the limit and beyond. I’ve raced against a lot of drivers. There is always bullies, but that’s not how I operate.

“I just try and beat them on track.”

[Wouter]

assuming the other guy will back out

Imo, this played a big part in 2021 as well.

Specially when you consider Lewis said this.

http://www.silverarrows.net/news/lewis- ... n-a-bully/

“I think Max is aggressive as hell,” Hamilton said.

“And more often than not, he pushes it to the limit and beyond. I’ve raced against a lot of drivers.
There is always bullies, but that’s not how I operate.

“I just try and beat them on track.”

.

The 2011 season for the British driver was a scrappy one that saw him have multiple incidents with different drivers on the track, most notable were his several clashes with Felipe Massa.
He was branded as over-aggressive and some even argued that the 26-year-old might be losing his edge at the time.

After hearing much complaining about his ‘hard racing’, Hamilton decided to address those who had a problem.
.

“I drive the way I drive, if people have an issue with that, that’s their problem.”

-Lewis Hamilton, 2011

.
“I think there is a balance. I don’t ever try to be aggressive to endanger anyone. I drive aggressively because my car is not fast enough at times and I have to push and be aggressive.”

“If I had a car I could cruise around in, then I wouldn’t have to be aggressive.”

- Lewis Hamilton | 2011

When Lewis was aggressive it was alright, when Max was aggressive it wasn't?
Max wasn't nearly as aggressive against Lewis as Lewis did against Massa in 2011.

[Just_a_fan]

Pretty much this:
Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

At Silverstone they hadn't even arrived at the apex before the contact. He missed it because it was still well ahead of him. You can see it in the picture. It's on that red and white kerbing ahead of him.

It's ok having a view but at least make it consistent with the observable facts.

[NathanOlder]

Pretty much this:
Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

At Silverstone they hadn't even arrived at the apex before the contact. He missed it because it was still well ahead of him. You can see it in the picture. It's on that red and white kerbing ahead of him.

It's ok having a view but at least make it consistent with the observable facts.

Also what is the fascination with the apex, I dont believe the rules state anywhere about reaching the apex. For example, Verstappens move on Leclerc in 2019, he never made the apex, but they bumped wheels. This would mean Max should have had a penalty ? Max was on the inside, didnt reach the apex, they bumped wheels. In Silverstone Lewis was on the inside, doesnt look like he will reach the apex, they bumped wheels.

[pob]

Is it reasonable to expect referees (stewards) exposed to a similar borderline situation to make the same call?
These are different stewards 10 years apart, with different types of cars.

In F1's case, generally they should: the stewards are meant to look back at similar incidents, even 10 years apart, when coming to their decision.

[Stu]

Pretty much this:
Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

At Silverstone they hadn't even arrived at the apex before the contact. He missed it because it was still well ahead of him. You can see it in the picture. It's on that red and white kerbing ahead of him.

It's ok having a view but at least make it consistent with the observable facts.

Also what is the fascination with the apex, I dont believe the rules state anywhere about reaching the apex. For example, Verstappens move on Leclerc in 2019, he never made the apex, but they bumped wheels. This would mean Max should have had a penalty ? Max was on the inside, didnt reach the apex, they bumped wheels. In Silverstone Lewis was on the inside, doesnt look like he will reach the apex, they bumped wheels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABKY6nbKIL4

This is why the whole ‘give them space’ and ‘racing room’ becomes an issue.
Max (for instance), runs Lewis to the edge of the track. “Racing room!!” Shout the LH fans…
Lewis (for instance), drifts wide while inside Max and they touch. “He turned in!!” Shout the LH fans….

In both of the above instances neither car takes up more than half of the track (therefore there is room).

Max ‘parks’ his car in the middle of a straight? That is a different thing entirely (not cricket!), but even with that incident it took two to tango (and Lewis knew exactly what Max was doing!!

There is room around all tracks on the calendar to allow cars to lap side by side for the entire lap. It wouldn’t be fast, but there is space. If a two drivers decide to go for a similar space, there is likely to be a collision, that IS the nature of racing (and racing drivers). The driver will always (& only) see things from their own perspective (hence the two separate Lewis quotes in the post above), one can be seen as coming from a point of greater maturity, the other comes from a point in his career that is quite similar to Max now. Is that a coincidence?

[Aesop]

Pretty much this:
Difference is Massa left no space inside, Max did. And in Silvertone Lewis missed the apex.

At Silverstone they hadn't even arrived at the apex before the contact. He missed it because it was still well ahead of him. You can see it in the picture. It's on that red and white kerbing ahead of him.

It's ok having a view but at least make it consistent with the observable facts.

Also what is the fascination with the apex, I dont believe the rules state anywhere about reaching the apex. For example, Verstappens move on Leclerc in 2019, he never made the apex, but they bumped wheels. This would mean Max should have had a penalty ? Max was on the inside, didnt reach the apex, they bumped wheels. In Silverstone Lewis was on the inside, doesnt look like he will reach the apex, they bumped wheels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABKY6nbKIL4

Totally different situation, Max was alongside Leclerc, frontwheel touched front wheel.
And yes, there are no rules about reaching the apex. That's irrelevant though, it's all about who's (predominantly) at fault. That's the one who should've taken a different trajectory-if possible. Hence, the 'fascination' with the apex.

“I think there is a balance. I don’t ever try to be aggressive to endanger anyone. I drive aggressively because my car is not fast enough at times and I have to push and be aggressive.”

“If I had a car I could cruise around in, then I wouldn’t have to be aggressive.”

Brilliant. Question is: is Lewis matured as a driver or has he been cruising since 2014 because he could? And what we saw at Silverstone was the Lewis of old?

[Wouter]

“I think there is a balance. I don’t ever try to be aggressive to endanger anyone.
I drive aggressively because my car is not fast enough at times and I have to push and be aggressive.”

“If I had a car I could cruise around in, then I wouldn’t have to be aggressive.”

.
Brilliant. Question is: is Lewis matured as a driver or
has he been cruising since 2014 because he could?
And what we saw at Silverstone was the Lewis of old?

.
To answer your questions: Yes, yes and yes.