2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Tvetovnato]

I must say I have seen a more frustrated Lewis than this…

[dans79]

https://i.redd.it/iuaaxyxgvsm81.jpg

Lewis made up some serious ground under braking for turn 1. If Sainz was braking as he normally would, then the W13 is carrying a serious amount of downforce.

[zibby43]

Mark Hughes wrote a detailed piece today on The Race explaining how the Merc was shutting off hybrid deployment on the straights.

It’s not a PU problem, as the Aston pulls strong. It’s a deliberate choice by Merc to turn down the wick on the straights.

He also explained how Ferrari historically carries more fuel than Merc.

Virtually no difference between C4 and C5 on this circuit. In sum, if you correct for those factors, the Merc and Ferrari performances we are seeing right now are virtually identical.

The caveat being, there are still many variables beyond that. But those are easy to account for. You can tell the top 3 aren’t showing anywhere near their full hand when a Haas is fastest lol.

[Dee]

Mark Hughes wrote a detailed piece today on The Race explaining how the Merc was shutting off hybrid deployment on the straights.

It’s not a PU problem, as the Aston pulls strong. It’s a deliberate choice by Merc to turn down the wick on the straights.

He also explained how Ferrari historically carries more fuel than Merc.

Virtually no difference between C4 and C5 on this circuit. In sum, if you correct for those factors, the Merc and Ferrari performances we are seeing right now are virtually identical.

The caveat being, there are still many variables beyond that. But those are easy to account for. You can tell the top 3 aren’t showing anywhere near their full hand when a Haas is fastest lol.

"It’s a deliberate choice by Merc to turn down the wick on the straights"

Isn't it due to the issue they have with porpoising? Saw a post that they can't go past a certain speed without it getting extremely bad, hence the "turn down the wick" on the straights

[zibby43]

Mark Hughes wrote a detailed piece today on The Race explaining how the Merc was shutting off hybrid deployment on the straights.

It’s not a PU problem, as the Aston pulls strong. It’s a deliberate choice by Merc to turn down the wick on the straights.

He also explained how Ferrari historically carries more fuel than Merc.

Virtually no difference between C4 and C5 on this circuit. In sum, if you correct for those factors, the Merc and Ferrari performances we are seeing right now are virtually identical.

The caveat being, there are still many variables beyond that. But those are easy to account for. You can tell the top 3 aren’t showing anywhere near their full hand when a Haas is fastest lol.

"It’s a deliberate choice by Merc to turn down the wick on the straights"

Isn't it due to the issue they have with porpoising? Saw a post that they can't go past a certain speed without it getting extremely bad, hence the "turn down the wick" on the straights

Nope. https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... right-now/

Whoever posted what you saw was very wrong in that instance. Not even remotely responsible for what is seen in the traces lol.

I know the account you’re referring to. It’s decent at gathering the data but poor at interpreting it.

[Dee]

Mark Hughes wrote a detailed piece today on The Race explaining how the Merc was shutting off hybrid deployment on the straights.

It’s not a PU problem, as the Aston pulls strong. It’s a deliberate choice by Merc to turn down the wick on the straights.

He also explained how Ferrari historically carries more fuel than Merc.

Virtually no difference between C4 and C5 on this circuit. In sum, if you correct for those factors, the Merc and Ferrari performances we are seeing right now are virtually identical.

The caveat being, there are still many variables beyond that. But those are easy to account for. You can tell the top 3 aren’t showing anywhere near their full hand when a Haas is fastest lol.

"It’s a deliberate choice by Merc to turn down the wick on the straights"

Isn't it due to the issue they have with porpoising? Saw a post that they can't go past a certain speed without it getting extremely bad, hence the "turn down the wick" on the straights

Nope. https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... right-now/

Whoever posted what you saw was very wrong in that instance. Not even remotely responsible for what is seen in the traces lol.

I know the account you’re referring to. It’s decent at gathering the data but poor at interpreting it.

I just read the article there and nowhere in it does Hughes state that porpoising is not the reason for the lack of speed on the straights. He states an idea from Sainz as an explanation "So let’s just go with Sainz’s hypothesis for now"

He goes on to mention porpoising in the article

"As Hamilton alluded, the Mercedes was more frequently understeering off track (particularly at Turns 4 and 10) and its porpoising looked more severe"


Hamiltons quote

“You can see on the onboards we’re getting tank-slappers left, right and centre,” said Hamilton, “then bouncing and bumping. So, not quite happy at the moment but we’re trying to tame it…

Now, Merc could be pulling a blinder and actively not putting up their power but maybe, just maybe, they have to deal with their issues before they can go full beans

[dans79]

“You can see on the onboards we’re getting tank-slappers left, right and centre,” said Hamilton, “then bouncing and bumping. So, not quite happy at the moment but we’re trying to tame it…

Now, Merc could be pulling a blinder and actively not putting up their power but maybe, just maybe, they have to deal with their issues before they can go full beans

All you have to do is look at testing last year, vs the first race. The team analyzed all the data, and came up with fixes to much bigger problems.

I'd be willing to be a lot of the proposing is related to the floor flexing, and the the floor that's currently being run was produced prior to the barcelona test.

[Dee]

“You can see on the onboards we’re getting tank-slappers left, right and centre,” said Hamilton, “then bouncing and bumping. So, not quite happy at the moment but we’re trying to tame it…

Now, Merc could be pulling a blinder and actively not putting up their power but maybe, just maybe, they have to deal with their issues before they can go full beans

All you have to do is look at testing last year, vs the first race.

But this year is not last year, this year is completely new. Last year Merc had 7 years of general experience about their car to comfortably detune their engine and then get the expected performance when turned up.

What are Mercedes achieving by not running high power on the straights in a regulation change year that has been said to be the most severe for the last 30 years? How will they know that their correlation and expected performance is correct?

At lower speeds on the straight, the car is suffering from extreme porpoising, two test weekends in a row. What will it be like at the higher end?

There is a massive reason for lower speed on the straights that is clearly seen, but somehow it should not be even in the conversation..

[Dee]

“You can see on the onboards we’re getting tank-slappers left, right and centre,” said Hamilton, “then bouncing and bumping. So, not quite happy at the moment but we’re trying to tame it…

Now, Merc could be pulling a blinder and actively not putting up their power but maybe, just maybe, they have to deal with their issues before they can go full beans

All you have to do is look at testing last year, vs the first race. The team analyzed all the data, and came up with fixes to much bigger problems.

I'd be willing to be a lot of the proposing is related to the floor flexing, and the the floor that's currently being run was produced prior to the barcelona test.

Sorry, you edited your comment while I was typing mine and I did not see the extra bits.

Are you agreeing that Merc are lowering their speed on the straights to come up with a fix for the porpoising so they have a new floor they can run at higher speeds without all the issues?

[dialtone]

“You can see on the onboards we’re getting tank-slappers left, right and centre,” said Hamilton, “then bouncing and bumping. So, not quite happy at the moment but we’re trying to tame it…

Now, Merc could be pulling a blinder and actively not putting up their power but maybe, just maybe, they have to deal with their issues before they can go full beans

All you have to do is look at testing last year, vs the first race. The team analyzed all the data, and came up with fixes to much bigger problems.

I'd be willing to be a lot of the proposing is related to the floor flexing, and the the floor that's currently being run was produced prior to the barcelona test.

That’s not possible: Merc in Barcelona had lasagna floor and now they don’t so that floor is new for Bahrain. I wouldn’t know what they have to gain to avoid testing a new floor to fix porpoising, I would bet they will have a new floor tomorrow. Ferrari tested 5 different floors in 2 tests, 4 new floors in the last 2 days of testing. Porpoising is clearly not practical to test in the wind tunnel so track testing is the best way.

[dans79]

Sorry, you edited your comment while I was typing mine and I did not see the extra bits.

Are you agreeing that Merc are lowering their speed on the straights to come up with a fix for the porpoising so they have a new floor they can run at higher speeds without all the issues?

I don't think they are reducing speed on the straits because of porpoising. They just aren't pushing the PU any harder than they need to, for their testing regime. I also don't think the porpoising is some kind of boogie man thing they can't fix. throughout testing pretty much all of the teams have had it off and on, depending on what ride height and suspension set-up they used for any given stint.

They are trying to gather as much data as they can, because what causes it will be different at every track, do to the unique topography of the individual tracks. If you go back and watch porpoising footage of any car, you will see the porpsing is always triggered/started by a irregularity in the track surface. Thus it behoves every team to figure out as many ways as possible to deal with the issue, as the overly simplistic way of just increasing ride height can leave a lot of performance on the table.

[dans79]

That’s not possible: Merc in Barcelona had lasagna floor and now they don’t so that floor is new for Bahrain. I wouldn’t know what they have to gain to avoid testing a new floor to fix porpoising, I would bet they will have a new floor tomorrow. Ferrari tested 5 different floors in 2 tests, 4 new floors in the last 2 days of testing. Porpoising is clearly not practical to test in the wind tunnel so track testing is the best way.

I'm well aware the floors are different between Barcelona & Bahrain. What I'm saying is both specs where most likely produced prior to the Barcelona test. Merc didn't do all of the following in under 2 weeks.

1. design a new floor
2. run CFD simulations
3. manufacture a 60%
4. test the 60% model in the windtunnel
5. Build a full sized floor
6. ship it to Bahrain

They might be able to get a new for ready for the Bahrain race based on what they learned in Barcelona, if it doesn't require major aero updates (ie structural changes to prevent flexing).


You will most liked find all those Ferrar floors where also produced prior to Barcelona.


read this. interview with Nick Chester (Chassis technical director for renault between 2016 and 2019)
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... AzRPE.html

How many times a team can go through the upgrade cycle during the season is limited either by the speed with which parts can be designed, or the pace at which they can be manufactured. Sometimes, says Chester, it can be a mixture of the two.

“It really depends on which parts you’re making,” he says. “For something like a front wing, it’s a team of designers working flat-out on it for four to six weeks after it’s come out of the wind tunnel. Then it goes into production and they’ll be flat-out as well. However good your resources are, you’re always left thinking: ‘if I had a bit more, I could do it quicker'.

“We try to be a little bit careful about not attempting to do too many things at the same time. There’s always the potential to try to juggle too much and not actually get anything to the track for the target race.”

[dialtone]

I don't know, the last of those Ferrari floors tested today is identical to the McLaren floor, so unless Ferrari knew how the MCL-36 floor looked like before the test, they have produced it in 2 weeks.

[dans79]

I don't know, the last of those Ferrari floors tested today is identical to the McLaren floor, so unless Ferrari knew how the MCL-36 floor looked like before the test, they have produced it in 2 weeks.

I guarantee you Ferrari didn't develop and build the floor in 2 weeks!

[dialtone]

I don't know, the last of those Ferrari floors tested today is identical to the McLaren floor, so unless Ferrari knew how the MCL-36 floor looked like before the test, they have produced it in 2 weeks.

I guarantee you Ferrari didn't develop and build the floor in 2 weeks!

Ok, how do you explain that it looks almost exactly the same?