Red Bull RB18

[iichel]

Dutch news paper reports both Red Bull and FIA reporting the DNF not to be related to the fuel pump:
https://www.telegraaf.nl/sport/58556469 ... enzinepomp

[chrisc90]

Some are saying fuel pumps but not which one, some say the AT was MGUK, some say it was oil pumps, some say it was battery related, some say the track rod was bent.

How does one bend a track rod during a pit stop? The jack is nowhere near it. Maybe the wheel was turned while they dropped it? Although that seems low energy compared to riding curbs with several hundred lbs of downforce on the wheel. Bending implies a metal part was damaged, not the CF spar.

I was talking to a lad from another garage today as he popped in. Apparently issues like that were really common back in the day but its been a long time since hes seen it. To do with how the tyre has too much grip to the road surface and the arc of the suspension travel as the weight is put back onto it.

(for example, jack your car up, and watch what the wheel does as it goes up, and importantly back down. The bottom edge of the tyre will be pulled 'under' as the tyre cant slip on the floor)

Apparently teams used to tile or paint the floor which allowed the tyre to slip as the weight of the car dropped back on. Ive never seen or heard of it, but hes been following motorsport and working on escort rally cars etc for over 50years

[vorticism]

I was talking to a lad from another garage today as he popped in. Apparently issues like that were really common back in the day but its been a long time since hes seen it. To do with how the tyre has too much grip to the road surface and the arc of the suspension travel as the weight is put back onto it.

(for example, jack your car up, and watch what the wheel does as it goes up, and importantly back down. The bottom edge of the tyre will be pulled 'under' as the tyre cant slip on the floor)

Apparently teams used to tile or paint the floor which allowed the tyre to slip as the weight of the car dropped back on. Ive never seen or heard of it, but hes been following motorsport and working on escort rally cars etc for over 50years

That makes sense now that you explain it. If the wheels toe in or out with droop then maybe something binds up during the fall. Over the radio VES was saying the steering force was higher in both directions and was also inconsistent, fwiw.

[Stu]

With respect to scarbs, that doesn't really explain why Max was saying it was getting worse!

The track rod was probably being damaged further during the green flag running. Bending more and more. Once it's out of alignment to the original design spec, the compression forces start to deform the rod plastically (as opposed to elastically).

Aren't they carbon fiber with Metal ends though?

Indeed, and even if they weren’t, plastic deformation would cause a catastrophic failure of the steering. Not something that you would want to corner with at all

[Big Tea]

Some are saying fuel pumps but not which one, some say the AT was MGUK, some say it was oil pumps, some say it was battery related, some say the track rod was bent.

How does one bend a track rod during a pit stop? The jack is nowhere near it. Maybe the wheel was turned while they dropped it? Although that seems low energy compared to riding curbs with several hundred lbs of downforce on the wheel. Bending implies a metal part was damaged, not the CF spar.

I was talking to a lad from another garage today as he popped in. Apparently issues like that were really common back in the day but its been a long time since hes seen it. To do with how the tyre has too much grip to the road surface and the arc of the suspension travel as the weight is put back onto it.

(for example, jack your car up, and watch what the wheel does as it goes up, and importantly back down. The bottom edge of the tyre will be pulled 'under' as the tyre cant slip on the floor)

Apparently teams used to tile or paint the floor which allowed the tyre to slip as the weight of the car dropped back on. Ive never seen or heard of it, but hes been following motorsport and working on escort rally cars etc for over 50years

the lower wishbone describes an arc as it moves up or down. This is probably more pronounced on vehicles with McPherson struts at an angle, as escorts often were (and crossbraced at the turret)

[Stu]

Some are saying fuel pumps but not which one, some say the AT was MGUK, some say it was oil pumps, some say it was battery related, some say the track rod was bent.

How does one bend a track rod during a pit stop? The jack is nowhere near it. Maybe the wheel was turned while they dropped it? Although that seems low energy compared to riding curbs with several hundred lbs of downforce on the wheel. Bending implies a metal part was damaged, not the CF spar.

I was talking to a lad from another garage today as he popped in. Apparently issues like that were really common back in the day but its been a long time since hes seen it. To do with how the tyre has too much grip to the road surface and the arc of the suspension travel as the weight is put back onto it.

(for example, jack your car up, and watch what the wheel does as it goes up, and importantly back down. The bottom edge of the tyre will be pulled 'under' as the tyre cant slip on the floor)

Apparently teams used to tile or paint the floor which allowed the tyre to slip as the weight of the car dropped back on. Ive never seen or heard of it, but hes been following motorsport and working on escort rally cars etc for over 50years

the lower wishbone describes an arc as it moves up or down. This is probably more pronounced on vehicles with McPherson struts at an angle, as escorts often were (and crossbraced at the turret)

The track rods wouldn’t see anything like the force that they do during cornering, I don’t recall seeing him hit anything (which would cause bending).

[chrisc90]

I was talking to a lad from another garage today as he popped in. Apparently issues like that were really common back in the day but its been a long time since hes seen it. To do with how the tyre has too much grip to the road surface and the arc of the suspension travel as the weight is put back onto it.

(for example, jack your car up, and watch what the wheel does as it goes up, and importantly back down. The bottom edge of the tyre will be pulled 'under' as the tyre cant slip on the floor)

Apparently teams used to tile or paint the floor which allowed the tyre to slip as the weight of the car dropped back on. Ive never seen or heard of it, but hes been following motorsport and working on escort rally cars etc for over 50years

the lower wishbone describes an arc as it moves up or down. This is probably more pronounced on vehicles with McPherson struts at an angle, as escorts often were (and crossbraced at the turret)

The track rods wouldn’t see anything like the force that they do during cornering, I don’t recall seeing him hit anything (which would cause bending).

Maybe the forces are different when the car is in motion? A bit like the good old Non power steering cars we drive....Much harder to turn the wheel stationary than when the car was in motion.

If the bent Track Rod happened in the pits, I think it could be a very plausible theory. The jacks arent going to touch them, neither are they going to interfere with the removal/installation of the tyre.

Max instantly mentioned it on the radio so cant see him hitting anything on track.

[PhillipM]

Apparently teams used to tile or paint the floor which allowed the tyre to slip as the weight of the car dropped back on. Ive never seen or heard of it, but hes been following motorsport and working on escort rally cars etc for over 50years

That would load up the lower wishbone, not the steering arm. And the forces are still an order of magnitude lower than the car would see in motion.

[Big Tea]

I was talking to a lad from another garage today as he popped in. Apparently issues like that were really common back in the day but its been a long time since hes seen it. To do with how the tyre has too much grip to the road surface and the arc of the suspension travel as the weight is put back onto it.

(for example, jack your car up, and watch what the wheel does as it goes up, and importantly back down. The bottom edge of the tyre will be pulled 'under' as the tyre cant slip on the floor)

Apparently teams used to tile or paint the floor which allowed the tyre to slip as the weight of the car dropped back on. Ive never seen or heard of it, but hes been following motorsport and working on escort rally cars etc for over 50years

the lower wishbone describes an arc as it moves up or down. This is probably more pronounced on vehicles with McPherson struts at an angle, as escorts often were (and crossbraced at the turret)

The track rods wouldn’t see anything like the force that they do during cornering, I don’t recall seeing him hit anything (which would cause bending).

That's what I an saying. The movement is in the geometry, it goes back to its neutral position when the suspension is in its rightful position. Its not a problem.
(on cars designed this way)

[ferkan]

Different RW specs tested by RB, used lower DF one for Bahrain race.

[mzso]

Is there an on-board (or some other good) video of the pit-stop in question that supposedly caused the damage?

[djones]

I wonder if we will see them doing slower pitstops at the next race. Gently lowering the front of the car down.

[PhillipM]

Does anyone have a decent photo of the 'bent' steering arm?

Because I haven't seen one yet, and I don't believe it can be that simple. If the arm is metal under carbon and bent *somehow* in the really low forces at a pitstop, it would just toe the tyre in a bit, that wouldn't explain the almost locking steering Max was describing even with power steering at all. If it's carbon it wouldn't bend it'd just flex and spring back.

The only way I can see that being plausible is if the outer joint went past it's designed misalignment angle, bound up and deformed. But I don't really see that either, one the misalignment angles in F1 are tiny anyway, especially with no steering lock on to give a compound angle - and two that would be a really, really rookie mistake on suspension design for a team of F1/RB calibre.

So far we only have a throwaway comment made at that time of "maybe we've bent a steering arm", I can't find any pictures?

[yallkok]

This post is very interesting, contains the full team radio of VER during the race:
https://www.racefans.net/2022/03/22/i-d ... ahrain-gp/

[aleks_ader]

I wonder if we will see them doing slower pitstops at the next race. Gently lowering the front of the car down.

Well yeah add damper in jack mechanism is maybe quick fix.