2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Stu
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Re: Mercedes W13

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De Jokke wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 18:03
yet Newey designed the 94 williams car which had ground effect if I'm not mistaken?
All ‘flat floor’ cars since tunnels were banned have utilised ground effect. If Newey has used any of his experience of GE tunnels it will be from his time in Indycar.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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The freak setup actually did Ok in the race.

Goerge looks solid. Decisive overtake there on the Alpine.

Lewis is Lewis but man even though got lucky with the SC he really lost out with the VSC.
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Jozsusz
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 21:01
The freak setup actually did Ok in the race.

Goerge looks solid. Decisive overtake there on the Alpine.

Lewis is Lewis but man even though got lucky with the SC he really lost out with the VSC.
Why did he get lucky with the sc? He didn't, his tactics were compromised. Everyone had a free pit stop and he still had to do one.

Hammerfist
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I'm surprised how little degradation there was. Something to keep in mind if we ever come back to race here (i hope not). Lewis was very unlucky. His second stint on the mediums was not impressive though, he never made an impression on Magnussen ahead. Perhaps he chose to consolidate today and I'm sure the yellow flags made things tricky to try and catch up. George maximized the car on this weekend. He made short work of whoever was in his way at the start and proceeded to drive a lonely but very solid race.

mkay
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 21:01
The freak setup actually did Ok in the race.

Goerge looks solid. Decisive overtake there on the Alpine.

Lewis is Lewis but man even though got lucky with the SC he really lost out with the VSC.
He didn't get lucky with the SC, quite the contrary.

On the flip side, though, given how high the likelihood of a SC/VSC around Jeddah, I am very surprised Merc didn't start on the mediums. Had they done so, HAM could have probably finished a comfortable P6 or even fought RUS for P5.

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JordanMugen
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Stu wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 18:08
De Jokke wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 18:03
yet Newey designed the 94 williams car which had ground effect if I'm not mistaken?
All ‘flat floor’ cars since tunnels were banned have utilised ground effect. If Newey has used any of his experience of GE tunnels it will be from his time in Indycar.
He also designed the Valkyrie recently, which has a shaped floor (the more modern three-dimensional kind, with double kick diffuser etc) so maybe that knowledge helps too? :)

Granted, maybe the AMG-One uses venturi tunnels too? I don't know much about it (actually I don't even know if it was designed by Mercedes GP in Brackley or rather Mercedes in Germany). Edit -- it does not use venturi tunnels.

Valkyrie diffuser: https://img.redbull.com/images/c_limit, ... d-hypercar
AMG-One diffuser: https://car-images.bauersecure.com/page ... car-56.jpg

That's not to say that Elliot and co aren't well aware of how to optimise the pressure distribution of a venturi tunnel either, even if they haven't spent as long thinking about it beforehand for other vehicles (albeit road cars with much higher ride heights).

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SiLo
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Merc dropping the ball today on strategy, how they don't call Lewis in earlier so he can just nip round Ricciardo is beyond me. Would have been well ahead of KMag after that.
Felipe Baby!

mkay
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Merc was over 1s/lap slower today. Unless somehow the W13's potential does materialise, this season is as good as over for Merc. Shame because it would have been fun having RUS and HAM scrap alongside the RB and Ferrari drivers.

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Stu
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mkay wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 22:59
Merc was over 1s/lap slower today. Unless somehow the W13's potential does materialise, this season is as good as over for Merc. Shame because it would have been fun having RUS and HAM scrap alongside the RB and Ferrari drivers.
Exactly, three teams fighting is way better than two.
If (IF!!) Mercedes unlock the potential of the W13, we might see this before we are the end of the season.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Do you think they could look at brining back side pods? But I guess they would be massively behind on that aswell if they did choose to.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 23:17
Do you think they could look at brining back side pods? But I guess they would be massively behind on that aswell if they did choose to.
They already have the Barcelona sidepods, so it would just be a matter of reworking the rear section of those sidepods to the fashionable "quasi-tub-pod" like Alpine or Red Bull. (Alpine managed to move towards the "quasi-tub-pod" by only changing one panel of the bodywork.) Assuming that is even something they would wish to consider...

Given the original rumour was that the "micro-pods" would bring 1s/lap improvement compared to Barcelona-spec, perhaps Mercedes are still convinced that the "micro-pods" concept is the best (at least for them)?

On the Barcelona-spec Mercedes, it seems the engine cover is one-piece rearwards from the seam in the "A" in PETRONAS back to a seam just around where the stars pattern starts, so they could redesign the sidepods between those two seams if they wish? [And only need two new moulds, left-hand and right-hand versions of that one panel, with respect to the budget cap. Of course the wind tunnel parts for the design (CNC aluminium?) would absorb further expenses...]

Barcelona-spec:
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2 ... _4252.jpeg

Edit - On the other hand, Russell seems to think the main loss of laptime is just from needing to run a higher ride height, and that the car will be very fast if it can run low.

George Russell:
It’s exactly the same as we’ve seen since day one. The only way to run is to raise the car very high. And obviously, with this ground effect car, we lose all of the downforce.

We know that if we can get the car on the ground, there’s a huge chunk of laptime there but we can’t achieve that at the moment. It’s all well and good saying that, but we can’t physically achieve that right now. So we need to have a rethink.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/we-need- ... explained/

Latios wrote:
26 Mar 2022, 20:41
The Mercedes-Benz porpoising issue is very serious. I guess it's due to the very small sidepod. The airflow outside the small sidepod can reach the upper surface of the diffuser more smoothly, and the flow can pull the airflow inside the diffuser more effectively, so Mercedes can choose lower ground clearance (than traditional sidepods). When the ground clearance is small, the porpoising is more likely to happen. Once Mercedes-Benz solves the problem of porpoisinging, its performance may increase greatly. However, it seems that the Mercedes-Benz engine does not have an advantage this season too, maybe due to E10 fuel?
Bravo to Latios for the theory on why the Mercedes' designers may prefer smaller ground clearance and thus more susceptibility to porpoising. =D> =D>

If Latios' theory has merit, then the Mercedes' designers forgetting their potentially excellent but unworkable sidepod design and adopting instead a conventional sidepod design like Red Bull, Alpine or HAAS may be the way to go...?
Last edited by JordanMugen on 28 Mar 2022, 17:49, edited 2 times in total.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Have a hunch that they have to start from the front wing to fix their porpoising problem.
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silver
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
28 Mar 2022, 01:58
chrisc90 wrote:
27 Mar 2022, 23:17
Do you think they could look at brining back side pods? But I guess they would be massively behind on that aswell if they did choose to.
They already have the Barcelona sidepods, so it would just be a matter of reworking the rear section of those sidepods to the fashionable "quasi-tub-pod" like Alpine or Red Bull. (Alpine managed to move towards the "quasi-tub-pod" by only changing one panel of the bodywork.) Assuming that is even something they would wish to consider...

Given the original rumour was that the "micro-pods" would bring 1s/lap improvement compared to Barcelona-spec, perhaps Mercedes are still convinced that the "micro-pods" concept is the best (at least for them)?

On the Barcelona-spec Mercedes, it seems the engine cover is one-piece rearwards from the seam in the "A" in PETRONAS back to a seam just around where the stars pattern starts, so they could redesign the sidepods between those two seams if they wish? [And only need two new moulds, left-hand and right-hand versions of that one panel, with respect to the budget cap. Of course the wind tunnel parts for the design (CNC aluminium?) would absorb further expenses...]

Barcelona-spec:
https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2 ... _4252.jpeg

Edit - On the other hand, Russell seems to think the main loss of laptime is just from needing to run a higher ride height, and that the car will be very fast if it can run low.

George Russell:
It’s exactly the same as we’ve seen since day one. The only way to run is to raise the car very high. And obviously, with this ground effect car, we lose all of the downforce.

We know that if we can get the car on the ground, there’s a huge chunk of laptime there but we can’t achieve that at the moment. It’s all well and good saying that, but we can’t physically achieve that right now. So we need to have a rethink.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/we-need- ... explained/
According to Rumours, Mercedes believes their Bahrain spec is a second up on the Barcelona spec. They are currently over a second behind on race pace. Going back to Barcelona spec means there would be a backlog of 2 seconds pace to be found. I genuinely doubt solving porpoising somehow magically gives them sharp end pace as other teams also have the problem and are running with compromise like Mercedes. Other teams might have smaller impact, but they would also be looking at driving the car lower. Somehow the TV coverage and the sports writers are making everyone believe it's only hurting Mercedes. Mclaren have no such porpoising problems, have sidepods to manage front tyre wake, yet are miles behind the competition. Mclaren say they are missing downforce. I don't think it's that crystal clear.

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wogx
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Kukułka zwyczajna, kukułka pospolita – nazwy ludowe: gżegżółka, zazula (Cuculus canorus) – gatunek średniego ptaka wędrownego z podrodziny kukułek (Cuculinae) w rodzinie kukułkowatych (Cuculidae). Jedyny w Europie Środkowej pasożyt lęgowy. Zamieszkuje strefę umiarkowaną.

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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What I can't get my head around is why the merc launch car ALREADY had the steepest front and rear wing on the grid, if the problem has turned out to be an overabundance of drag?

Did they overestimate the power of their engine?

Did they underestimate the power of the other engines?

Basically, if drag is such a concern, why did the W13 leave the factory with hugemongous wings in the first place?