Ferrari F1-75

[Drift4794]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

[AR3-GP]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

Two comments:

1) RWMP of the Ferrari is still larger than that of the RB. So even when DRS flap is open, the wing assembly is creating more drag on the Ferrari.

2) RWF of the RB is larger than that of the Ferrari.

[Drift4794]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

Two comments:

1) RWMP of the Ferrari is still larger than that of the RB. So even when DRS flap is open, the wing assembly is creating more drag on the Ferrari.

2) RWF of the RB is larger than that of the Ferrari.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FO7aPWuWYAE ... ame=medium

Aha, thank you! I hadn't noticed this. So, can such a speed difference be primarily chalked down to this? Or are there other factors that I mentioned above? Maybe the porpoising that doesn't allow the Ferrari to run as close to the ground as the RB?

And slightly off-topic, but why would you want to have a smaller rear-wing flap than your competition? What advantages does that give?

[Andi76]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

I do not think the reason for that is aero-efficiency. If the F1-75 would not be efficient aerodynamically, Ferrari would not be the team fighting for wins. Aero-efficiency is essential for that and you usually do not fight for wins if you have a car thats aerodynamically not efficient.

I was told that Ferrari had indeed the wrong aero set-up. They ran less downforce than Red Bull. Less downforce results in less speed you can carry through the corner and a slower corner exit. So Verstappen was able to carry more speed through the corner, was faster at the exit of the corner already, probably had better traction, too, and with DRS this added up to a much faster car on the straight. This is probably the reason why Verstappen was so much faster with DRS.

If we talk about drag levels people often compare the rear-wings, but in the days of ground effect cars its possible to have a slightly bigger rear-wing, but still have less downforce than a competitor with a smaller rear-wing, as its more about the underfloor these days.

[JPBD1990]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

I do not think the reason for that is aero-efficiency. If the F1-75 would not be efficient aerodynamically, Ferrari would not be the team fighting for wins. Aero-efficiency is essential for that and you usually do not fight for wins if you have a car thats aerodynamically not efficient.

I was told that Ferrari had indeed the wrong aero set-up. They ran less downforce than Red Bull. Less downforce results in less speed you can carry through the corner and a slower corner exit. So Verstappen was able to carry more speed through the corner, was faster at the exit of the corner already, probably had better traction, too, and with DRS this added up to a much faster car on the straight. This is probably the reason why Verstappen was so much faster with DRS.

If we talk about drag levels people often compare the rear-wings, but in the days of ground effect cars its possible to have a slightly bigger rear-wing, but still have less downforce than a competitor with a smaller rear-wing, as its more about the underfloor these days.

My understanding is the opposite of what you have said. Ferrari ran more downforce than redbull, not less. Ferrari were superior through almost every corner on the track while redbull were faster on the straight.

[LM10]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

I do not think the reason for that is aero-efficiency. If the F1-75 would not be efficient aerodynamically, Ferrari would not be the team fighting for wins. Aero-efficiency is essential for that and you usually do not fight for wins if you have a car thats aerodynamically not efficient.

I was told that Ferrari had indeed the wrong aero set-up. They ran less downforce than Red Bull. Less downforce results in less speed you can carry through the corner and a slower corner exit. So Verstappen was able to carry more speed through the corner, was faster at the exit of the corner already, probably had better traction, too, and with DRS this added up to a much faster car on the straight. This is probably the reason why Verstappen was so much faster with DRS.

If we talk about drag levels people often compare the rear-wings, but in the days of ground effect cars its possible to have a slightly bigger rear-wing, but still have less downforce than a competitor with a smaller rear-wing, as its more about the underfloor these days.

It was the other way around regarding the downforce levels - Ferrari had more than RedBull.

[Andi76]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

I do not think the reason for that is aero-efficiency. If the F1-75 would not be efficient aerodynamically, Ferrari would not be the team fighting for wins. Aero-efficiency is essential for that and you usually do not fight for wins if you have a car thats aerodynamically not efficient.

I was told that Ferrari had indeed the wrong aero set-up. They ran less downforce than Red Bull. Less downforce results in less speed you can carry through the corner and a slower corner exit. So Verstappen was able to carry more speed through the corner, was faster at the exit of the corner already, probably had better traction, too, and with DRS this added up to a much faster car on the straight. This is probably the reason why Verstappen was so much faster with DRS.

If we talk about drag levels people often compare the rear-wings, but in the days of ground effect cars its possible to have a slightly bigger rear-wing, but still have less downforce than a competitor with a smaller rear-wing, as its more about the underfloor these days.

It was the other way around regarding the downforce levels - Ferrari had more than RedBull.

Sorry! Just woke up and was not yet quite clear in my head and totally messed up what i have been told. You are absolutely right. Mea culpa. Ferrari ran more downforce.

But i think i still was right regarding aero-set-up and aero-efficiency. The reason for RBs much faster car on the straights was the aero-set-up. Not Aero-Efficiency. If Ferrari would be worse in relation to aero-efficiency, the cars would not be so close together every weekend.

[variante]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

1 - Ferrari has a larger rear wing (as others have already pointed out)
2 - Ferrari has a smaller flap (meaning MORE DRAG, as it can take less advantage of DRS)
3 - Ferrari has larger beam wings

All in all, Ferrari and RedBull aero performances are different mostly due to set-up.

[wildseries]

Ferrari are not running their car as low as they prefer due to porpoising where as Redbull are running their car very low almost to the ground. Do you think the next upgrade for the floor allows them to run lower which unlocks even more performance?

[GrrG]

Interesting Interview with Sergio Rinland which confirms Vanja analysis

https://www.f1sport.it/2022/03/f1-rinla ... rari-f175/

[PlatinumZealot]

I tend to agree that things are too close to call to say who is more aero efficient. What we saw in the battle was two different set up directions, or compromises, lower DF vs ligher DF working well on this Jeddah track.

[matteosc]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

1 - Ferrari has a smaller rear wing (as others have already pointed out)
2 - Ferrari has a smaller flap (meaning MORE DRAG, as it can take less advantage of DRS)
3 - Ferrari has larger beam wings

All in all, Ferrari and RedBull aero performances are different mostly due to set-up.

From what I see in the picture, Ferrari has a way bigger rear wing than Reb Bull, with indeed smaller DRS flap. Beam wings are difficult to evaluate, I think.

[Vanja #66]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

Compared to RB, Ferrari bodywork has both advantages and disadvantages, so this is not critical. Floor drag depends on the downforce performance. RW drag and downforce have a big impact, especially drag. I wouldn't say Ferrari solved bouncing problems 100%, not nearly. In fact, to me it looks like they have higher ride height than RB, meaning they probably extract less downforce than RB right now. If the speculated Imola floor allows Ferrari to lower ride height and avoid bouncing, Ferrari could gain downforce with floor and lose drag by using smaller RW angles.

At the same time, RB is working on weight reduction, so both teams have room for improvement.

[variante]

Ferrari really need to work on the aero-efficiency of the car. In Jeddah, with the rear wing open, Leclerc was only 10-15km/h faster than Verstappen whereas it was 30-35km/h the other way around. This shows the higher top speed of the RB is not just setup-related but an inherent superiority in drag levels.

The body and underfloor of the Ferrari are more draggy than RB.

Can some more knowledgeable people here think of ways to bridge this gap?

1 - Ferrari has a smaller rear wing (as others have already pointed out)
2 - Ferrari has a smaller flap (meaning MORE DRAG, as it can take less advantage of DRS)
3 - Ferrari has larger beam wings

All in all, Ferrari and RedBull aero performances are different mostly due to set-up.

From what I see in the picture, Ferrari has a way bigger rear wing than Reb Bull, with indeed smaller DRS flap. Beam wings are difficult to evaluate, I think.

Yeah, sorry, larger rear wing for Ferrari obviously. I corrected.
As for the beam wing, RedBull did introduce a less aggressive beam wing, and i think they raced with that one.

[Drift4794]

Thank you for the wonderful replies everyone. I have a better understanding now. Cautiously optimistic about the prospects going forward