2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[NicoS]

Previously, you made a big deal about "Facts"
So, can we please have your facts for suggesting that the Merc PU has being illegal?

I never stated Mercedes PU is illegal. I just reminded all of the fact that Ferrari, when they got caught out, their car became draggy.

As you very well know, it is called "insinuating"
I'll ask again, as you are so in favour of "facts" and brought someone up on that.

Lets here facts for your insinuations

I gave you the facts surrounding Ferrari PU.
Insinuation is not factual, merely drawing parallels.
Unlike the other poster that stated "let's look at some facts", I never pretended to provide facts about Mercedes PU, so I do not really understand your argument?

[f1jcw]

I never stated Mercedes PU is illegal. I just reminded all of the fact that Ferrari, when they got caught out, their car became draggy.

As you very well know, it is called "insinuating"
I'll ask again, as you are so in favour of "facts" and brought someone up on that.

Lets here facts for your insinuations

I gave you the facts surrounding Ferrari PU.
Insinuation is not factual, merely drawing parallels.
Unlike the other poster that stated "let's look at some facts", I never pretended to provide facts about Mercedes PU, so I do not really understand your argument?

This is the Merc thread, not sure what relevance FACTS on the Ferrari PU is here.
Nope, you are not providing facts on Merc PU, just insinuations with no basis or evidence.
I have no argument, just pointing out your trolling.

[NicoS]

As you very well know, it is called "insinuating"
I'll ask again, as you are so in favour of "facts" and brought someone up on that.

Lets here facts for your insinuations

I gave you the facts surrounding Ferrari PU.
Insinuation is not factual, merely drawing parallels.
Unlike the other poster that stated "let's look at some facts", I never pretended to provide facts about Mercedes PU, so I do not really understand your argument?

This is the Merc thread, not sure what relevance FACTS on the Ferrari PU is here.
Nope, you are not providing facts on Merc PU, just insinuations with no basis or evidence.
I have no argument, just pointing out your trolling.

Like stated, I used it so you could draw a parallel (you did). I can not help that you do not like then possible outcome of this parallel that you have drawn. but don't worry, I also find it strange that all MB powered cars are "draggy" this season.

[silver]

I don't think anyone is saying or can say there was or is any legality issue with Mercedes engines. What is ironic is that both attributed their lack of straight line performance to drag when competition moved ahead of them. That's the only parallel. At some point we would know a part of the truth. For now one has to take what Mercedes says on the face value. But it is undeniable fact that all the Mercedes powered cars are struggling with straight line performance.

[Morteza]

[holeindalip]

I don't think anyone is saying or can say there was or is any legality issue with Mercedes engines. What is ironic is that both attributed their lack of straight line performance to drag when competition moved ahead of them. That's the only parallel. At some point we would know a part of the truth. For now one has to take what Mercedes says on the face value. But it is undeniable fact that all the Mercedes powered cars are struggling with straight line performance.

Aston martin run the same rear suspension as merc, so if that’s one of the reasons they are purpoising that’s why they are off the pace, Williams is just being Williams. Mclaren and Mercedes’ are just off the pace it just happens to be a coincidence the are all merc powered…

[elMaestro]

This is BS. They are already almost 1 second slower in race pace compared to the best. From now on until Barcelona, Red Bull and Ferrari will gain half a second because at Barcelona all the big teams will have big upgrades. So nothing changes. At beat they will level the force with RB and Ferrari. This car has been an epic failure until now with all its problems. It was arrogance and underestimating the competition like they did with no tokens spent last year too. They could not anticipate that the whole concept has to decrease air resistance from the nose to the real whels not just the sidepods. The porpoising was solved by RB with the upgrade before the season started and Mercedes is not even sure how to solve it. It is so painful the fact that they switched earlier than Red Bull (but later than Ferrari) the resources for the 2022 car and still they are slower. What if Red bull switched effort earlier than they did? What would have been the difference???? What I cant understant what they are doing with the simulation and wind tunnel tools if they could not even acurately simulate the porpoising effect??? What did they think? Make the arrangements and interna coolings of the engine and transmission to make very tiny sidepods and that was all? That was the game changer that they could not even think about remotely?? What car is that that is so slim, so skinny and still be the heaviest on the grid??? Totto was talking in June that the 2022 car is not a baby anymore? That the project is mature enough while at the same time Red Bull was taking vans with aero bits in France and Austria? Where are those hours in the wind tunnel and CFD?? Is Newey so good to make this good car so late in development cycle?

Take a chill pill. Its only the 2nd race.
There's a reason why they are an 8 time constructors and a 7 time drivers champion in this turbo-hybrid era.

[JordanMugen]

2. The car has been operating with a significant handicap for 2 races yet is 2nd in the constructors

It seems that Mercedes want to run their car lower than anyone else to replicate their predicted aero performance from the design stage, i.e., it seems that package is designed around a very, very low ride height. But what if running the car that low (lower than anyone else) without porpoising is actually impossible, rather than a flaw that can be fixed?

Perhaps the others chose a more realistic ride height when designing the car?

8. You don't need to have the fastest car all season to win championships.

If there is one thing you learn about sport, is it's never over until it's over.

Statements like "we will go for the championship" without showing the car performance to make that seem realistic, serve no purpose. There's nothing wrong with being an upper-midfield team - third in the WCC like Ferrari last season or Red Bull in 2017 or 2019 is a good result.

There's a reason why they are an 8 time constructors and a 7 time drivers champion in this turbo-hybrid era.

Ferrari were third-best for the entire 2005 season despite 6 time constructors and 5 times driver's titles. It was fine, no big deal. Why shouldn't other teams and drivers get a chance at the front from time to time?

Claiming Mercedes will be better than best-of-the-rest "just because" seems most unrealistic IMO. Best-of-the-rest is still a great result!

With the exasperated interviews from the likes of Russell, the team seems to be placing too much pressure on themselves (speaking as if solving porpoising is some kind of silver bullet, pardon the pun), instead of being realistic and gradually adding small performance upgrades to the car like say Alpine.

[cheeRS]

This is BS. They are already almost 1 second slower in race pace compared to the best. From now on until Barcelona, Red Bull and Ferrari will gain half a second because at Barcelona all the big teams will have big upgrades. So nothing changes. At beat they will level the force with RB and Ferrari. This car has been an epic failure until now with all its problems. It was arrogance and underestimating the competition like they did with no tokens spent last year too. They could not anticipate that the whole concept has to decrease air resistance from the nose to the real whels not just the sidepods. The porpoising was solved by RB with the upgrade before the season started and Mercedes is not even sure how to solve it. It is so painful the fact that they switched earlier than Red Bull (but later than Ferrari) the resources for the 2022 car and still they are slower. What if Red bull switched effort earlier than they did? What would have been the difference???? What I cant understant what they are doing with the simulation and wind tunnel tools if they could not even acurately simulate the porpoising effect??? What did they think? Make the arrangements and interna coolings of the engine and transmission to make very tiny sidepods and that was all? That was the game changer that they could not even think about remotely?? What car is that that is so slim, so skinny and still be the heaviest on the grid??? Totto was talking in June that the 2022 car is not a baby anymore? That the project is mature enough while at the same time Red Bull was taking vans with aero bits in France and Austria? Where are those hours in the wind tunnel and CFD?? Is Newey so good to make this good car so late in development cycle?

Agreed. Arrogance, and underestimated for sure. Considering there's no budget cap for PU development, they totally got complacent. Not only did they botch the aero, they botched how much of a change E10 would do to their PU

They botched the aero? They botched the change to E10? I could see how you could maybe assume the former (tenuously), but not the latter.

[matteosc]

This is BS. They are already almost 1 second slower in race pace compared to the best. From now on until Barcelona, Red Bull and Ferrari will gain half a second because at Barcelona all the big teams will have big upgrades. So nothing changes. At beat they will level the force with RB and Ferrari. This car has been an epic failure until now with all its problems. It was arrogance and underestimating the competition like they did with no tokens spent last year too. They could not anticipate that the whole concept has to decrease air resistance from the nose to the real whels not just the sidepods. The porpoising was solved by RB with the upgrade before the season started and Mercedes is not even sure how to solve it. It is so painful the fact that they switched earlier than Red Bull (but later than Ferrari) the resources for the 2022 car and still they are slower. What if Red bull switched effort earlier than they did? What would have been the difference???? What I cant understant what they are doing with the simulation and wind tunnel tools if they could not even acurately simulate the porpoising effect??? What did they think? Make the arrangements and interna coolings of the engine and transmission to make very tiny sidepods and that was all? That was the game changer that they could not even think about remotely?? What car is that that is so slim, so skinny and still be the heaviest on the grid??? Totto was talking in June that the 2022 car is not a baby anymore? That the project is mature enough while at the same time Red Bull was taking vans with aero bits in France and Austria? Where are those hours in the wind tunnel and CFD?? Is Newey so good to make this good car so late in development cycle?

Take a chill pill. Its only the 2nd race.
There's a reason why they are an 8 time constructors and a 7 time drivers champion in this turbo-hybrid era.

I have two takes on this two comments:
1) No one was/is able to correctly simulate porpoising, because of the limitations of the scaled wind tunnel and other reasons. For some team the corrections were straightforward, for Mercedes they are not. Mercedes used a lot of resources on last season's car, because of how close both championships were; they are paying a price now, but they can recover, relax.
2) Yes, they won 8 construction championships, but last time I checked, also teams like Red Bull and Ferrari had a decent success, in F1 history... Every year is different, especially with big technical changes

[dans79]

Mercedes used a lot of resources on last season's car, because of how close both championships were; they are paying a price now, but they can recover, relax.

And how exactly do you know that? I ask because this is not the type on information the teams share, and no one outside of senior management(not the type of people to spill the beans) would know how much was spent.

[dans79]

With the exasperated interviews from the likes of Russell, the team seems to be placing too much pressure on themselves (speaking as if solving porpoising is some kind of silver bullet, pardon the pun), instead of being realistic and gradually adding small performance upgrades to the car like say Alpine.

Small upgrades could be utterly useless if poprusing isn't fixed first.

It's no different than coming up with a PU upgrade thats adds 25hp to an engine that only last 2 or 3 races. Reliability is the bigger issue, and needs to be solved first!

[f1jcw]

The way people speak, you’d think they know more about F1 and building racing cars then a team that just so happened to win 8 WDC in a row. It’s like telling Stephen Hawkins how to do arithmetic.

[MDB983]

Aston martin run the same rear suspension as merc, so if that’s one of the reasons they are purpoising that’s why they are off the pace, Williams is just being Williams. Mclaren and Mercedes’ are just off the pace it just happens to be a coincidence the are all merc powered…

An interesting article over at AMuS with a number of quotes by Toto:-

"We didn't do the best job in various areas. It's difficult to estimate how far behind we would be if we could drive our car lower."

"There are deficits that are bigger than the engine."

The most concerning fact is that Merc have yet to fully understand the issues they face, and until they solve the bouncing there is little point in developing the car further as it might make the issue worse. A quote attributed to a Merc. Engineer

"We assumed that there would be less shaking at Jeddah because the track is smoother. We were wrong. We still don't fully understand what factors trigger the phenomenon. It's an ongoing learning process ."

[matteosc]

Mercedes used a lot of resources on last season's car, because of how close both championships were; they are paying a price now, but they can recover, relax.

And how exactly do you know that? I ask because this is not the type on information the teams share, and no one outside of senior management(not the type of people to spill the beans) would know how much was spent.

They kept improving car and working on engine reliability to try to win the championship, same as Red Bull, but you are right, I have no inside source. Way more credible that they called it a day midway in the championship and hoped for the best.