2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[dialtone]

So this is first time I am seeing comparison between these two cars onboard, but is it just me or does RB18 understeer quite a bit compared to Ferrari? Noticable in several corners in S1...

Perez steering lock is almost always bigger and even then, it is understeering

Yeah, AFAIK RedBull fans are waiting for a reduction in weight and fix for the understeer, which some believe could come at the same time by using more ballast at the front. Or by changing the balance of the car thanks to the change in weight.

[AR3-GP]

Those falling rounded edges are 100% not where drivers are on the brakes already, it is almost certainly just down to battery deployment strategies at the end of straights. There exists this ultra aggressive recharge mode when you'll actually run MGU-K against the ICE to charge up the energy store and this is what's likely happening here on ferrari and mercedes. Red bull with their very low drag is able to pump more juice at top end because they don't use as much mid-straight trying to overcome drag, or they might inherently have more energy recovery capabilities.

In bahrain differences in drag levels were already very apparent, it wasn't just in saudi arabia, even if it went to another level in that race.

Yep, the yellow background is where driver is either <97% throttle or >0% braking, so yes that's correct.
As per the energy recovery due to differences in aero drag, I'm not really convinced it's the case. The Merc had a smaller rear wing compared to Ferrari in Jeddah, and Merc's engine is definitely not that much worse than the others, and yet it shows the same behavior.

Also these are all qualifying laps where there's no need to reach the end of the lap with any battery on board so...



At around 0:34 seconds is the entry to T13, the corner with the most roundedness from Ferrari. If you go frame by frame you'll see that the rev lights from the Ferrari wheel are long gone, and the wheel started turning, when RedBull's are still all turned on, that's not just energy recovery, that's a driver that has lifted early, it takes half a second for the Red Bull to do the same and in a sharper way.

EDIT: judging throttle and brake tracks too strictly in this telemetry is not advisable because they aren't that precise, you need a few points to make a trend, as opposed to measuring a single point, because at 4-5Hz jittery sample rate of this telemetry you get errors that could be all the way up to 0.4-5s differences in when the sample is taken which is an eternity at a corner.

So this is first time I am seeing comparison between these two cars onboard, but is it just me or does RB18 understeer quite a bit compared to Ferrari? Noticable in several corners in S1...

Perez steering lock is almost always bigger and even then, it is understeering

Remember that Leclerc has a tendency to set his car up with a strong front/oversteer while Perez prefers a more neutral to understeer handling so we don't know what portion comes from the driver preferences, and what is inherent in the car. Considering that RB have no rear wing, one would think it could come around easily, but it seems like the setup opposes this.

[LM10]

#AMuS At Mercedes, they suspect that the Ferrari F1-75 has the best aerodynamic stability of any car. The F1-75 can afford to have a bit of bouncing without the drivers losing confidence.

That’s been my impression as well. Even though Ferrari is still porpoising when going a bit more extreme with the ride height/the setup, it stays quite stable.

[Drift4794]

Those falling rounded edges are 100% not where drivers are on the brakes already, it is almost certainly just down to battery deployment strategies at the end of straights. There exists this ultra aggressive recharge mode when you'll actually run MGU-K against the ICE to charge up the energy store and this is what's likely happening here on ferrari and mercedes. Red bull with their very low drag is able to pump more juice at top end because they don't use as much mid-straight trying to overcome drag, or they might inherently have more energy recovery capabilities.

In bahrain differences in drag levels were already very apparent, it wasn't just in saudi arabia, even if it went to another level in that race.

Was the AlphaTauri also running a low-drag setup in Jeddah? If yes, then might be useful to compare their laps to RBR to find out if it's the engine or the aero

[ferkan]

Those falling rounded edges are 100% not where drivers are on the brakes already, it is almost certainly just down to battery deployment strategies at the end of straights. There exists this ultra aggressive recharge mode when you'll actually run MGU-K against the ICE to charge up the energy store and this is what's likely happening here on ferrari and mercedes. Red bull with their very low drag is able to pump more juice at top end because they don't use as much mid-straight trying to overcome drag, or they might inherently have more energy recovery capabilities.

In bahrain differences in drag levels were already very apparent, it wasn't just in saudi arabia, even if it went to another level in that race.

Was the AlphaTauri also running a low-drag setup in Jeddah? If yes, then might be useful to compare their laps to RBR to find out if it's the engine or the aero

AT ran considerably more wing then RB, and were quite a bit of on speed traps (in line with Haas basically)

[Drift4794]

Those falling rounded edges are 100% not where drivers are on the brakes already, it is almost certainly just down to battery deployment strategies at the end of straights. There exists this ultra aggressive recharge mode when you'll actually run MGU-K against the ICE to charge up the energy store and this is what's likely happening here on ferrari and mercedes. Red bull with their very low drag is able to pump more juice at top end because they don't use as much mid-straight trying to overcome drag, or they might inherently have more energy recovery capabilities.

In bahrain differences in drag levels were already very apparent, it wasn't just in saudi arabia, even if it went to another level in that race.

Was the AlphaTauri also running a low-drag setup in Jeddah? If yes, then might be useful to compare their laps to RBR to find out if it's the engine or the aero

AT ran considerably more wing then RB, and were quite a bit of on speed traps (in line with Haas basically)

Ohkay. Anyway here's the speeds on the back straights during the quali. Seems like Honda uses most of the battery in the final third of the straight

[dialtone]

Was the AlphaTauri also running a low-drag setup in Jeddah? If yes, then might be useful to compare their laps to RBR to find out if it's the engine or the aero

AT ran considerably more wing then RB, and were quite a bit of on speed traps (in line with Haas basically)

Ohkay. Anyway here's the speeds on the back straights during the quali. Seems like Honda uses most of the battery in the final third of the straight

https://i.imgur.com/RdQhJfR.png

Alpha Tauri looks sharper than F1-75. It also seems to me that Alpha Tauri generates less downforce than Ferrari overall given the speed in corners and straights, but that's no surprise.

It's possible that the lack of sharp corners is driven by a combo of high downforce/energy deployment as well as porpoising at the end of the day.

[AR3-GP]

Those falling rounded edges are 100% not where drivers are on the brakes already, it is almost certainly just down to battery deployment strategies at the end of straights. There exists this ultra aggressive recharge mode when you'll actually run MGU-K against the ICE to charge up the energy store and this is what's likely happening here on ferrari and mercedes.

MGU-H you mean?

The RB front suspension may impact why the drivers are braking the way they do. I agree, the tail end of the speed trace is likely related to the recharge strategies.

It's a bit strange that the PU's differ. One would think the optimization would lead the engineers to the same result. Perhaps the low drag of the RB allows them to use a more progressive recharge down the straight, as opposed to an increase in the regen at the end.

[Juzh]

Those falling rounded edges are 100% not where drivers are on the brakes already, it is almost certainly just down to battery deployment strategies at the end of straights. There exists this ultra aggressive recharge mode when you'll actually run MGU-K against the ICE to charge up the energy store and this is what's likely happening here on ferrari and mercedes.

MGU-H you mean?

No, you can do it with K for really fast charging, basically using K as brakes while at full throttle.

Honestly after thinking some more about it, I don't believe it's happening here as speed would drop even further (I've seen drops from 300 down to 285 km/h when cars were doing this), here ferrari is just turning of mgu-k late on straights as there's very little to be gained by burning up energy so close before braking zone. They're then using mgu-h to recover that small bit of energy.

[AR3-GP]

Those falling rounded edges are 100% not where drivers are on the brakes already, it is almost certainly just down to battery deployment strategies at the end of straights. There exists this ultra aggressive recharge mode when you'll actually run MGU-K against the ICE to charge up the energy store and this is what's likely happening here on ferrari and mercedes.

MGU-H you mean?

No, you can do it with K for really fast charging, basically using K as brakes while at full throttle.

Honestly after thinking some more about it, I don't believe it's happening here as speed would drop even further (I've seen drops from 300 down to 285 km/h when cars were doing this), here ferrari is just turning of mgu-k late on straights as there's very little to be gained by burning up energy so close before braking zone. They're then using mgu-h to recover that small bit of energy.

I'm curious if the MGU-K thing would be legal. Wouldn't that be like automatic braking? (illegal driver aid?).

[Polite]

MGU-H you mean?

No, you can do it with K for really fast charging, basically using K as brakes while at full throttle.

Honestly after thinking some more about it, I don't believe it's happening here as speed would drop even further (I've seen drops from 300 down to 285 km/h when cars were doing this), here ferrari is just turning of mgu-k late on straights as there's very little to be gained by burning up energy so close before braking zone. They're then using mgu-h to recover that small bit of energy.

I'm curious if the MGU-K thing would be legal. Wouldn't that be like automatic braking? (illegal driver aid?).

No! MGU-K can harvest only if the brake pedal is pushed.. not in the straits at full speed.

[Juzh]

MGU-H you mean?

No, you can do it with K for really fast charging, basically using K as brakes while at full throttle.

Honestly after thinking some more about it, I don't believe it's happening here as speed would drop even further (I've seen drops from 300 down to 285 km/h when cars were doing this), here ferrari is just turning of mgu-k late on straights as there's very little to be gained by burning up energy so close before braking zone. They're then using mgu-h to recover that small bit of energy.

I'm curious if the MGU-K thing would be legal. Wouldn't that be like automatic braking? (illegal driver aid?).

There was talk about it back in 2016 already. It was never fully confirmed but assumed that was what's happening on those speed drops.

[AR3-GP]

https://i.imgur.com/5RYPcgV.png

This is 1-2 quali laps from PER and LEC, I've checked LEC v BOT as well anyway and the curves are similar.
Reposting this mostly to talk about an item that really is bugging me and I can't quite explain: The lack of sharp corners in the Ferrari.

RBR is capable of getting very sharp drops in speed in the corners, while Ferrari always seems to be tapering off, if not even shedding some speed, for the first few times I thought that was just a FP engine mode, but clearly they ran the same in both Q session in the first 2 races.

I would have said it's driving style, but SAI, LEC and BOT kind of show the same (or very similar) behavior of lack of sharp drops. So I'm left with 2 options:

1) Engine mode, even in quali, is very aggressive at recovering energy, could explain why Ferrari is really good with traction out of the corner.
2) They sacrifice that sharp corner for porpoising reasons and can't quite push the car as hard as they wanted when braking from top speed.

What do you folks think?

It just occured to me. Leclerc is using both the throttle and the brake in the middle of the corner. He never lets the throttle go to zero. Normally, this is an extremely inefficient driving style. But it could be that Leclerc is harvesting inside the corners. Running the ICE against the MGU-K in the corners with the brake by wire programmed to activate the MGU-K only at low speed or something like that.

[Big Tea]

No, you can do it with K for really fast charging, basically using K as brakes while at full throttle.

Honestly after thinking some more about it, I don't believe it's happening here as speed would drop even further (I've seen drops from 300 down to 285 km/h when cars were doing this), here ferrari is just turning of mgu-k late on straights as there's very little to be gained by burning up energy so close before braking zone. They're then using mgu-h to recover that small bit of energy.

I'm curious if the MGU-K thing would be legal. Wouldn't that be like automatic braking? (illegal driver aid?).

No! MGU-K can harvest only if the brake pedal is pushed.. not in the straits at full speed.

But how far (hard?) would it have to be pushed to be legal. Does it have to be proportional, or jus as long as there is a signal. I assumed it could harvest on lift, without the peddle actually being used.( I really do not know, just asking, not arguing)

[BassVirolla]

I'm curious if the MGU-K thing would be legal. Wouldn't that be like automatic braking? (illegal driver aid?).

No! MGU-K can harvest only if the brake pedal is pushed.. not in the straits at full speed.

But how far (hard?) would it have to be pushed to be legal. Does it have to be proportional, or jus as long as there is a signal. I assumed it could harvest on lift, without the peddle actually being used.( I really do not know, just asking, not arguing)

The true question is, given that the rulebook gives a torque delivery curve defined in function of throttle position and rpm, is that torque defined, to say in some form, at crankshaft exit (only ICE) or at clutch exit (as accounting for ICE + MGUK torque).

As long as I think, the torque characteristics are taken for the PU as a whole.

As I see it, you can release the throttle, run your ICE at 120kw, harvest with the MGUK at 120kw and obtain a net torque of 0nm "outside" the PU, not breaking any torque relative rule (0% throttle = 0% torque).