2023 Las Vegas Grand Prix - Las Vegas, Nov 16 - 18

[PlatinumZealot]

Globalisation. F1 is a European product that must be exported for it to survive. European product fuled by global money.

Yet, it arose without it, and survived on its home market for decades. It's like saying Japan needs immigration in order survive not being overpopulated. Ponder that you as an American insists that domestic markets cannot sustain themselves without foreign industrial labor markets, while his country collapses from lacking a domestic industrial labor market, as a result of the system he is promoting.

Immigration doesnt really apply to F1 on any grand scale. You have a few immigrants entering the sport which is good but its tiny.

You must understand that labour is cheap abroad and without it we would be paying massively inflated prices for the goods that we love. Each country has competitive advtanges. Cheap labour is not one for Europe or the USA.

But i wasnt talking about outsourcing labour.. Talking about exporting the product. It's called global expansion. It is a tried and true business practice to increase revenues and reduce risk.

Global expansion wont hurt the europeaness of tge sport. Just like how mcdonalds and satbucks will always be american.

[vorticism]

Immigration doesnt really apply to F1 on any grand scale. You have a few immigrants entering the sport which is good but its tiny.

You must understand that labour is cheap abroad and without it we would be paying massively inflated prices for the goods that we love. Each country has competitive advtanges. Cheap labour is not one for Europe or the USA.

But i wasnt talking about outsourcing labour.. Talking about exporting the product. It's called global expansion. It is a tried and true business practice to increase revenues and reduce risk.

Global expansion wont hurt the europeaness of tge sport. Just like how mcdonalds and satbucks will always be american.

It was an analogy about markets/nations being able to self sustain or determine their own fates outside of foreign intervention, don't take the immigration part too literally.

To your latter points, yes, the mantras of the corporate executives. Although cheapness of consumer products isn't worth celebrating if they arrive at the cost of diminished domestic prosperity (deindustrialization). Markets/nations should be self sustaining, not manipulated by capital continually searching for the most exploitable workforce that can be found.

It’s not only about population size, is market appeal for sponsors, who ultimately fund the sport.

This is why I say F1's over reliance upon advertising/marketing over the years has been its downfall. They're too concerned about perception, less concerned about motorsport.

[Rodak]

On a classical racetrack you are so far away....in 50% it rains some time during the event, you have issues reaching the track and you have issues to watch the frame program. Better to watch on TV.

Except that, and this is from personal experience, with a street race and concrete barriers you can't see shyte. Seriously, if you want to see race cars don't go to a street circuit. For obvious reasons the cars are always close to the barriers and the seated fans don't have x-ray vision; all you might see will be the tops of the roll hoops. And 10:00 pm in the States, 1:00 am on the east coast? I hope they are aiming for a different audience......

[SmallSoldier]

No one is saying that… But the apparent “outrage” because there is a third race there is a bit hard to understand… We seem to be ok with 2 races in Italy (Monza, Imola), wouldn’t mind 2 races in Germany (Hockenheim, Nurburgring), but we have an issue with a third in the US?

The reality is that the US is a market that is very appealing, not only to FOM but more importantly to the sponsors of the different Teams… It’s a market that has been hard to make inroads for F1 and they are finally breaking through with increasing interest and viewership, taking advantage of that momentum is an smart move.

F1 is a European sport though. Obviously having multiple venues there makes sense, they were all there at one time. America like most other nations outside Europe are trying to cash in on it, which further removes it from what created its appeal. It's a choice of whether you want one of the pinnacles of motorsport to remain European, or rather, more episodes of Drive to Contrive. American markets may be appealing, or at least were when the dollar wasn't collapsing. I guess it's a question of whether you want an X7 or an M3 from your European toy manufacturer.

There are a few issues with your statement:

- F1 “was” a European sport… It is (and has been for a long time) a Global Sport
- Races weren’t raced in Europe “all at one time”… The first F1 race was in 1950, in 1953 they celebrated a GP in Argentina
- F1, way before FOM (Bernie days) has always tried to grow outside of Europe, why constrain the sport when it has a Global appeal and a Global audience? There has always been a push to make the sport reach farther than just Europe for obvious econimical / financial reasons… Without been a global sport, it would be very hard to consider it the “Pinnacle” of Motorsport.
- Drive to Survive has indeed open up F1 to a larger audience and created a path for those that either have never watched a race and therefore didn’t find the appeal or to those that simply weren’t much aware of it.
- The USD is collapsing? First I heard of that… Spoiler alert, it isn’t.
- You also mentioned in a following post that appealing to Sponsors is Formula 1’s downfall… Nothing further from the truth, in actuality, F1 is the healthiest it has ever been, not only from a Financial point of view, but from a viewership and attendance stand point… Which is what is driving the sport to engage in additional races… $FWONK (Formula 1’s stock) have doubled even considering the price pre-pandemic.

It isn’t the US that is asking for more races… It is FOM that considers that is “best for business”… As a matter of fact, contrary to all other races, Las Vegas is actually been promoted by F1 itself, instead of a promoter having to pay them a fee to host the event.

[vorticism]

No, grand prix racing came out of Europe, obviously, of course all early GP type races were there, and all the first official F1 races were in Europe, except for Indy which was sort of an odd inclusion in the historic rosters; the first teams were from all from Europe in the earliest days, obviously, and that continued til now with occasional exceptions from Japan, Brazil, USA, etc. Most non-Euro teams in modern eras have still been HQ'd in Europe. You can take F1 out of Europe, but this apparently comes at a cost as we've seen the sport become its modern interpretation. Ship of Theseus except the shipbuilders don't know what the ship used to look like.

[SmallSoldier]

No, grand prix racing came out of Europe, obviously, of course all early GP type races were there, and all the first official F1 races were in Europe, except for Indy which was sort of an odd inclusion in the historic rosters; the first teams were from all from Europe in the earliest days, obviously, and that continued til now with occasional exceptions from Japan, Brazil, USA, etc. Most non-Euro teams in modern eras have still been HQ'd in Europe. You can take F1 out of Europe, but this apparently comes at a cost as we've seen the sport become its modern interpretation. Ship of Theseus except the shipbuilders don't know what the ship used to look like.

Thought we were talking about tracks, not teams… Moving the goal post?

[Airshifter]

I never have understood the entire Vegas thrill myself, and probably never will. I lived within a few hours of Vegas for years and rarely went there, though I travelled farther often to go elsewhere. I think a street circuit would be pretty boring there myself, there is essentially no terrain, the roads weren't that great when I was there, and all the lights mean nothing to racing if you ask me.

It will no doubt help bring in a lot of high rollers and celebrities tossing money around, and these days that is a big part of things as well. I just don't expect a good race out of it myself.


But the thread has been good for pointing out that some in Europe feel threatened that an international sport might become too international. Considering the size and GDP of the US it's really more of a surprise that there weren't more races here for decades. But I do find it comical to hear that apparently it's us 'Merican's with our struggling economy that is somehow ruining the puritan forms of F1.

[SmallSoldier]

No, grand prix racing came out of Europe, obviously, of course all early GP type races were there, and all the first official F1 races were in Europe, except for Indy which was sort of an odd inclusion in the historic rosters; the first teams were from all from Europe in the earliest days, obviously, and that continued til now with occasional exceptions from Japan, Brazil, USA, etc. Most non-Euro teams in modern eras have still been HQ'd in Europe. You can take F1 out of Europe, but this apparently comes at a cost as we've seen the sport become its modern interpretation. Ship of Theseus except the shipbuilders don't know what the ship used to look like.

There is no denying that it came from Europe, but a quick search showed that:

A) There hasn’t been a single season since 1950 (considered as F1 inception) that hasn’t had a race outside of Europe
B) From 1950 until 1991, the US was host to a Formula 1 race uninterrupted
C) From 1950 until 1991, there were more races held in the US than in any other country, since in several seasons there 2 races held in the US)… UK/Britain also had 2 races held in the same season
D) The US has hosted more F1 races than other country during that period of time
E) During the period between 1977 and 1984 it was the only country to host 2 races during the same season

The effort from F1 to be a Global sport has been there from the beginning… The effort to brake into the US market has been there as well, this isn’t anything new… The stats, history and facts prove it.

[SmallSoldier]

I never have understood the entire Vegas thrill myself, and probably never will. I lived within a of Vegas for years and rarely went there, though I travelled farther often to go elsewhere. I think a street circuit would be pretty boring there myself, there is essentially no terrain, the roads weren't that great when I was there, and all the lights mean nothing to racing if you ask me.

It will no doubt help bring in a lot of high rollers and celebrities tossing money around, and these days that is a big part of things as well. I just don't expect a good race out of it myself.


But the thread has been good for pointing out that some in Europe feel threatened that an international sport might become too international. Considering the size and GDP of the US it's really more of a surprise that there weren't more races here for decades. But I do find it comical to hear that apparently it's us 'Merican's with our struggling economy that is somehow ruining the puritan forms of F1.

I did the research… And actually, until 1992 there hasn’t been a country that has held more F1 races than the US… The effort was always there… But, the US had Indy, Nascar and a big “nationalism” mentality that made it hard for them to adopt something that wasn’t born in the US to begin with… Luckily, it’s changing now (apparently).

[PlatinumZealot]

Immigration doesnt really apply to F1 on any grand scale. You have a few immigrants entering the sport which is good but its tiny.

You must understand that labour is cheap abroad and without it we would be paying massively inflated prices for the goods that we love. Each country has competitive advtanges. Cheap labour is not one for Europe or the USA.

But i wasnt talking about outsourcing labour.. Talking about exporting the product. It's called global expansion. It is a tried and true business practice to increase revenues and reduce risk.

Global expansion wont hurt the europeaness of tge sport. Just like how mcdonalds and satbucks will always be american.

It was an analogy about markets/nations being able to self sustain or determine their own fates outside of foreign intervention, don't take the immigration part too literally.

To your latter points, yes, the mantras of the corporate executives. Although cheapness of consumer products isn't worth celebrating if they arrive at the cost of diminished domestic prosperity (deindustrialization). Markets/nations should be self sustaining, not manipulated by capital continually searching for the most exploitable workforce that can be found.

It’s not only about population size, is market appeal for sponsors, who ultimately fund the sport.

This is why I say F1's over reliance upon advertising/marketing over the years has been its downfall. They're too concerned about perception, less concerned about motorsport.

In bold. There is no domestic prosperity if a country tries to produce everyrhing for itself. Economoic research has proven that a country that relies on itself will always be in a worse position than it would be if it has open trade.

It is simply becauase of competitive advantage. Other countries have resources, skills, tehcnoligies that they can produce better or for cheaper. They will attract investment for this advantage. While the isolated country will not be attractive at all because it is wasting resources on trying to do everything for itself and not directing those resources to being good/efficient at its strengths.

Nationalistic thinking wont work for F1. Even Bernie Ecclestone recognized that.

[Michelangelo]

Another race with a boring street circuit layout, shining lights, an aura of wealthiness and luxury. We have a lot of great racetracks, actual ones, that we missed but again, money talks.

[SiLo]

With the money and space the US has, it could build some incredible tracks. And for a country that spend a significant amount of time driving, they sure are keen to have them in city centres so people travel less.

[RGAEDA]

America is a big market. Almost unlimited growth potential. Massive value. So why not three races?

Likewise China.

Likewise India.

So multiple races in those countries too?

People in those countries have a fraction of the purchasing power of Americans so they won't buy formula 1 goods and services as much. That's even if they are as interested in the "Formula 1 universe."

I think it depends on the popularity of F1, at least in India you have to have a tenth of the popularity of cricket to survive in the country. I don't think the purchasing power is a defining factor, if you look at the finances of the cricket league, the Indian premier league, it stands 4th in terms of revenue it generates, only next to the NFL, MLB, and NBA. All the American sporting leagues have a long season throughout the year whereas the Indian premier league lasts only 2 months of a year, the purchasing power is definitely there in india but the popularity, not so much.

[Scorpaguy]

and a big “nationalism” mentality that made it hard for them to adopt something that wasn’t born in the US to begin with…

...yep, there are still quite a few over here that view the introduction of soccer as a communist plot (actually only being half sarcastic)

[Juzh]

Dull looking layout. DRS fly-bys will be order of the day.