2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Is there any ‘upgrades’/ ‘test parts’ coming for Australia?

Rumoured rear wing which should shed some of the drag

[AMG.Tzan]

Maybe it did in the simulator but they can't extract all of it right now because of the bouncing/porpoising, how do you know that a fix isn't coming and they gain 2.5s/lap?

We don’t know for sure, but I don’t think there is any example of a single in-season update bringing over 1s of relative lap time gain in the last 20+ years, let alone 2.5s

I’d be interested to know what the most effective mid-season update (not a new car) has been since 2000… 2015 Force India? McLaren in 2009? Genuinely curious. Maybe a different thread?

Definitely Mclaren 2009!

It took them from the back of the grid at Silverstone to front of the grid at the next race at Nurburgring immediately! If it wasn't for a puncture, Lewis could easily have ended up on the podium or even win! But he did so anyway in the next race at Hungary!

I don't see Mercedes finding so much performance with only one upgrade! They haven't even discovered what's causing their porpoising! Of course I hope their upgrades can solve the problem but I'm not so sure...! My best guess on a win this year would be a rainy race where all teams have to raise the ride height of their cars anyway!

[Lefty8]

Is there any ‘upgrades’/ ‘test parts’ coming for Australia?

Rumoured rear wing which should shed some of the drag

and therefore downforce which won't help with lap time but may help with the underfloor airflow choking

[Lefty8]

On the same note of porpoising issue, "(Mark) Hughes spoke to several aerodynamics specialists who tell you that any porpoising problem they ever encountered was solved by either restricting the venturi inlet or expanding its outlet. Surrendering some theoretical downforce that’s forever inaccessible for some real-world downforce."

Source: https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/107731/m ... oblem.html

this is one of the most factual articles on the matter. There is no something for nothing with the underfloor design. If the floor stalls or diffusor chokes then the mass flow through it needs to be balanced across a wider pressure range to solve the problem. They can either shed the downforce or redesign the floor which may require bigger overall changes to the car which may not be possible in 2022 under cost cap regs.
They would likely be better served simplifying the inlet structures and determining the effect on underfloor flow.
There may be many causes for the porpoising but shedding downforce is the easiest quick fix

[dans79]

James Allison says it's not the aero which is responsible for porpoising. Your reasoning of porpoising occuring due to most downforce of any team appears to be not aligning there.

I think you are misinterpreting what he said. The DF isn't what's causing it, but once it gets started the DF makes it worse.

Stupid question then, what is causing it, if not the downforce?

Bumps on the track and the suspension get it started, and then once it gets going the floor aero keeps it going!

[Mchamilton]

Is there any ‘upgrades’/ ‘test parts’ coming for Australia?

Rumoured rear wing which should shed some of the drag

and therefore downforce which won't help with lap time but may help with the underfloor airflow choking

Could very well help with laptime if the wing is more efficient. the team wouldnt bother if there wasnt a laptime improvement in it

[Just_a_fan]

On the same note of porpoising issue, "(Mark) Hughes spoke to several aerodynamics specialists who tell you that any porpoising problem they ever encountered was solved by either restricting the venturi inlet or expanding its outlet. Surrendering some theoretical downforce that’s forever inaccessible for some real-world downforce."

Source: https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/107731/m ... oblem.html

That ought to be fairly straight forward to solve, if it's that simple. Just reduce the inlet size by dropping the height of the floor front edge (with appropriate contouring of the underside, of course). Or adopt a RB18-style beam wing design to effectively extend the diffuser and thus expand the outlet.

[zibby43]

James Allison says it's not the aero which is responsible for porpoising. Your reasoning of porpoising occuring due to most downforce of any team appears to be not aligning there.

I think you are misinterpreting what he said. The DF isn't what's causing it, but once it gets started the DF makes it worse.

Bingo.

[AR3-GP]

Rumoured rear wing which should shed some of the drag

and therefore downforce which won't help with lap time but may help with the underfloor airflow choking

Could very well help with laptime if the wing is more efficient. the team wouldnt bother if there wasnt a laptime improvement in it

I would be surprised if Mercedes managed to lob off a chunk of drag from such a simple component like a rear wing, without also losing a proportionate amount of downforce from the wing itself.

Wing design is very mature. It's rare to see a team using what is viewed as an "inefficient" wing for the amount of downforce it generates but I maybe Merc thought their PU could get away with it and now realized they need that last bit of efficiency optimization?

[Mchamilton]

and therefore downforce which won't help with lap time but may help with the underfloor airflow choking

Could very well help with laptime if the wing is more efficient. the team wouldnt bother if there wasnt a laptime improvement in it

I would be surprised if Mercedes managed to lob off a chunk of drag from such a simple component like a rear wing, without also losing a proportionate amount of downforce from the wing itself.

Wing design is very mature. It's rare to see a team using what is viewed as an "inefficient" wing for the amount of downforce it generates but I maybe Merc thought their PU could get away with it and now realized they need that last bit of efficiency optimization?

Yeah wing design is very mature yet RB and merc have gone completely opposite directions. When you look at the main plane and flap chord length, merc have a tiny flap in comparison. I dont know which would be more draggy when drs is closed but merc surely maintain higher drag and df when its open with the extra size of the mainplane

[silver]

James Allison says it's not the aero which is responsible for porpoising. Your reasoning of porpoising occuring due to most downforce of any team appears to be not aligning there.

I think you are misinterpreting what he said. The DF isn't what's causing it, but once it gets started the DF makes it worse.

The problem, in Mercedes case is, even they are not clear what's causing it or what is making it worse! I doubt anyone outside of the team can even put a finger on the problem. To then say, they have most downforce of any team and that's why they have the problem, makes no sense. What we have seen being explained by various pundits is a simple conjecture of what they think is happening, which is that there is suction (from downforce) under the floor that pulls the car down and then there is stall, which releases the downforce and pushes the car back. Problem is, it's such a simple explanation of such a complex problem. I don't think anyone outside of the team knows where the problem exactly is. I would refrain from making conjectures of the problem and then use that as a reason to big up the team.

[PlatinumZealot]

Somebody from Mercedes said, the package didn't deliver as they anticipated. There could be some correlation issues. It could also be possible that it was indeed a second faster, but the other didn't show their full hand in first test.

They didn't say it didn't deliver in the context of missing performance targets, but in rectifying the porpoising.

One thing that is widely accepted from aero experts is that the extreme porpoising is likely partially a consequence of having the most downforce of any team. If they can start to use that downforce efficiently, without jacking up the rear of the car and having to rely on the inefficient wing surfaces, they're going to gain a chunk of laptime.

James Allison says it's not the aero which is responsible for porpoising. Your reasoning of porpoising occuring due to most downforce of any team appears to be not aligning there. Most cars have faced the porpoising problems, including Alpha Tauri and Ferrari, who in terms of performance are at two different ends of that spectrum and adopt a compromise to get away from the problem. Ferrari, even with a compromise, is fighting at the front. I am sure every other team is looking at solutions for porpoising that can then allow them to run the car lowest possible to gain further downforce. Mercedes is not alone in that regard.

Never heard him say this!

[AR3-GP]

Could very well help with laptime if the wing is more efficient. the team wouldnt bother if there wasnt a laptime improvement in it

I would be surprised if Mercedes managed to lob off a chunk of drag from such a simple component like a rear wing, without also losing a proportionate amount of downforce from the wing itself.

Wing design is very mature. It's rare to see a team using what is viewed as an "inefficient" wing for the amount of downforce it generates but I maybe Merc thought their PU could get away with it and now realized they need that last bit of efficiency optimization?

Yeah wing design is very mature yet RB and merc have gone completely opposite directions. When you look at the main plane and flap chord length, merc have a tiny flap in comparison. I dont know which would be more draggy when drs is closed but merc surely maintain higher drag and df when its open with the extra size of the mainplane

I think you've misunderstood my post.

Design of wing efficiency is very mature and done by computers. What that means is that for a given planform area and desired level of downforce, the computer will spit out the optimum shape to minimize drag. The RB has a much smaller wing because the downforce it makes is less.

What I'm trying to say is Mercedes are not going to maintain the RW downforce they had previously while reducing drag. The efficiency of that size of wing will have already been computer optimized to a high degree. The only way to reduce drag in an appreciable way is to just make the wings smaller. The ran smaller flaps in Saudi Arabia. They will have a smaller mainplane in Australia.

[Lefty8]

James Allison says it's not the aero which is responsible for porpoising. Your reasoning of porpoising occuring due to most downforce of any team appears to be not aligning there.

I think you are misinterpreting what he said. The DF isn't what's causing it, but once it gets started the DF makes it worse.

The problem, in Mercedes case is, even they are not clear what's causing it or what is making it worse! I doubt anyone outside of the team can even put a finger on the problem. To then say, they have most downforce of any team and that's why they have the problem, makes no sense. What we have seen being explained by various pundits is a simple conjecture of what they think is happening, which is that there is suction (from downforce) under the floor that pulls the car down and then there is stall, which releases the downforce and pushes the car back. Problem is, it's such a simple explanation of such a complex problem. I don't think anyone outside of the team knows where the problem exactly is. I would refrain from making conjectures of the problem and then use that as a reason to big up the team.

what you are describing is a choked diffusor. The solution lies in a new underbody with new inlet and diffusor. This is going to take some time to correct and fabricate. There is also likely a correlation issue between their CFD and windtunnel which may not be calibrated correctly. We saw they started to have aero issues the start of 2020 already even in that year they referred to their car as a Diva. The W12 was a carry over and carried some of those issues from 2020 into 2021. Now the W13 is looking difficult. This is not a one-off problem. There's something else going on back at the factory that's translating into these challenges

[Big Tea]

Am I correct in my thinking, that as they had lots of downforce they could not use, and lots of drag from this item, they just as well sacrifice downforce they are not using to lose drag they were stuck with?
No point having a wing that can produce huge downforce if they can not wind it on anyway?

There are so many opinions of what they gain and what they lose it gets confusing to a bare of little brain.