Mercedes W13

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
silver
silver
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Joined: 23 Feb 2021, 06:50

Re: Mercedes W13

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dialtone wrote:
06 Apr 2022, 19:11
AA_2019 wrote:
06 Apr 2022, 18:49
dialtone wrote:
06 Apr 2022, 18:25


Despite that being Peter Wright, I'm sure the issue isn't as easy as "get a harder suspension and use harder tyres" because Mercedes would have taken 20 minutes to try that and see it fixed.

Err… they did try a harder suspension in pre season tests but it made it undrivable, pretty sure they needed more than 20 mins to test and figure that out or else they would not have wasted valuable testing time 😂

The lower downforce rear wing will help to reduce purposing, then they can run the car lower to make up the loss of downforce and then they go back to the same level of purposing tolerance but with less drag. That should have taken them 20 mins to figure out during the pre season test, but clearly didn’t
As I said it already in this thread in the past, in my opinion any commentary that assumes Merc isn't smart, or hasn't thought of something obvious, is likely wrong or simplifying the problem too much. It should be obvious to assume that a team that won 8 WCCs in a row is stacked, so starting with this assumption, if it's taking them this long to figure it out, they are either solving a different problem than what people here are thinking or the problem isn't so trivial to solve for them.

And making the car undrivable by using a harder suspension is not a solution, maybe the compromises they chose don't allow for that, unlike other cars which instead have been able to deal with it that way, with slightly higher ride height.
What would be interesting to know is, how much the suspension rule changes have hurt Mercedes.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 4bp8j.html
Also now banned are:
“Any form of ride height control or alteration via self-levelling systems or feedback loops.” This would seem to outlaw the Mercedes rear suspension’s ability last year to set to a lower ride height once the downforce at higher speeds had pressed the car down past a set threshold. This is what allowed the car to maintain its dramatic diffuser stall for enhanced straightline speed.

“Any variation of ride height caused by the suspension geometry’s kinematics and the tyre shape must not exceed 3mm over the range of steering lock.” This has limited how far the front suspension can be lowered past a threshold of steering lock, giving the car more downforce on low-speed corners, an innovation introduced by Ferrari in 2018 but since widely copied.

“Any storing of energy via any means for delayed deployment and/or any suspension system that would result in a non-incidental asymmetry (e.g. hysteresis, time dependency, etc.) in the response to changes in load applied to the wheels.” This outlaws any system which prevents the suspension loads being transferred in a linear way and would include the inerter but is not limited to that.

It will be interesting in particular to see how Mercedes have reacted to this set of limitations, as their front suspension has long featured the unique ‘interconnected double-almond’ anti-roll bar arrangement.

It may be that this will still be permissible, depending upon whether there is any asymmetry in the way the roll bar articulates and whether that varies according to how sudden the cornering loads are. It may have been possible previously to engineer this system so that a sudden steering input would sit the car down on the outside-rear and with appropriate valving in the damper allow the inside front to lighten or lift, and thus help it glide over the kerbs without upsetting the car.

If that is how the Mercedes system was operating, it would also now be headed off by the following wording of the regulations.

“Hysteresis is acceptable in an element providing it is at an incidental level and no attempt is made to utilise any inherent hysteresis to alter the response of the element relative to its primary purpose. Links may be used to actuate the suspension elements that are mounted remotely from the rockers but cannot be used to circumvent or subvert the requirement of Article 10.2.6. Such links must be rigid and of minimal mass and design so as to achieve the linking mechanism.”

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pursue_one's
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Joined: 28 Mar 2021, 04:50

Re: Mercedes W13

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I think that’s not a good sign.


AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: Mercedes W13

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I was going to mention it earlier, but I have no idea why Mercedes would be looking for a low downforce wing in Melbourne. It makes no sense. Melbourne is not a low downforce track.
A lion must kill its prey.

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_cerber1
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Joined: 18 Jan 2019, 21:50
Location: From Russia with love

Re: Mercedes W13

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Image
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Last edited by _cerber1 on 07 Apr 2022, 08:30, edited 1 time in total.

Sevach
Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Mercedes W13

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Will Mercedes try running without stays? If so this might be a new floor despite not being outwardly different.

morefirejules08
morefirejules08
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Joined: 11 Feb 2012, 14:21

Re: Mercedes W13

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Sevach wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 08:29
https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... JuieoU0cQA

Will Mercedes try running without stays? If so this might be a new floor despite not being outwardly different.
Mounting point for the stay is still visible which suggests they’ll be added later

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
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Joined: 18 Feb 2011, 00:16

Re: Mercedes W13

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But it’s only Thursday, a day of pit stop practices etc. Is it too much to think that a new rear wing and/or floor could be bolted on first thing tomorrow morning prior to show and tell.

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NicoS
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Joined: 11 Feb 2022, 17:21

Re: Mercedes W13

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KeiKo403 wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 10:01
But it’s only Thursday, a day of pit stop practices etc. Is it too much to think that a new rear wing and/or floor could be bolted on first thing tomorrow morning prior to show and tell.
Still imagining some cat and mouse hiding game, "sand bagging"?
Teams on the back foot rarely have time for games, they require focused approach!

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wogx
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 18:48

Re: Mercedes W13

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Image

*CFD-eyes mode on*
I still don't get it why Mercedes uses such bulky connection between main plane and "end plate". They're the only ones to do so!
Kukułka zwyczajna, kukułka pospolita – nazwy ludowe: gżegżółka, zazula (Cuculus canorus) – gatunek średniego ptaka wędrownego z podrodziny kukułek (Cuculinae) w rodzinie kukułkowatych (Cuculidae). Jedyny w Europie Środkowej pasożyt lęgowy. Zamieszkuje strefę umiarkowaną.

KeiKo403
KeiKo403
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Joined: 18 Feb 2011, 00:16

Re: Mercedes W13

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NicoS wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 10:09
KeiKo403 wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 10:01
But it’s only Thursday, a day of pit stop practices etc. Is it too much to think that a new rear wing and/or floor could be bolted on first thing tomorrow morning prior to show and tell.
Still imagining some cat and mouse hiding game, "sand bagging"?
Teams on the back foot rarely have time for games, they require focused approach!
Not quite what I meant. Just that it’s a day of pushing the car by the rear wing with the floor surrounded by men with pneumatic guns 8 fairly big and heavy wheels. Why risk the parts by even 1% if they don’t need to?

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_cerber1
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Joined: 18 Jan 2019, 21:50
Location: From Russia with love

Re: Mercedes W13

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KeiKo403 wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 10:01
But it’s only Thursday, a day of pit stop practices etc. Is it too much to think that a new rear wing and/or floor could be bolted on first thing tomorrow morning prior to show and tell.
Judging by the comments from the paddock, the MB did not have time to prepare their rear wing for Melbourne, and they are waiting for him in Imola.

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NicoS
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Joined: 11 Feb 2022, 17:21

Re: Mercedes W13

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KeiKo403 wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 10:19
NicoS wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 10:09
KeiKo403 wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 10:01
But it’s only Thursday, a day of pit stop practices etc. Is it too much to think that a new rear wing and/or floor could be bolted on first thing tomorrow morning prior to show and tell.
Still imagining some cat and mouse hiding game, "sand bagging"?
Teams on the back foot rarely have time for games, they require focused approach!
Not quite what I meant. Just that it’s a day of pushing the car by the rear wing with the floor surrounded by men with pneumatic guns 8 fairly big and heavy wheels. Why risk the parts by even 1% if they don’t need to?
I do apologise, Sorry for stereotyping you.

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pursue_one's
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Joined: 28 Mar 2021, 04:50

Re: Mercedes W13

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@GiulyDuchessa reports that Mercedes won't have a new rear wing(spoon) in Melbourne.


mkay
mkay
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AR3-GP wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 07:41
I was going to mention it earlier, but I have no idea why Mercedes would be looking for a low downforce wing in Melbourne. It makes no sense. Melbourne is not a low downforce track.
If they want to shed some drag, then they do need a new rear wing.

And Melbourne is going to be miles faster this year than in prior years due to the track layout changes.

Jdn1327
Jdn1327
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Joined: 07 Apr 2022, 12:47

Re: Mercedes W13

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Sevach wrote:
07 Apr 2022, 08:29
https://twitter.com/AlbertFabrega/statu ... JuieoU0cQA

Will Mercedes try running without stays? If so this might be a new floor despite not being outwardly different.
Does this floor look any different to what ran in the previous 2 grand prix? I can see a cut away I the rear section just under the rise...but is there anything else that is different? Anyone have a side by side comparison?