Ferrari F1-75

[TechF1]

Interesting but the wing incidence between the cars was very different

[Chuckjr]

Deleted

[AR3-GP]

Interesting but the wing incidence between the cars was very different

That's what the regression (curve fit) is for. Basically you have two forces, the engine and the drag. If you can create a mathematical expression for the engine force and the drag force, and fit it well to the dataset, then it shows that your model is what the car is doing. So basically OP backed out power and drag differences from a guess at the form of the expressions for drag and power (using well known formulations). We can believe it because the model fits the dataset to a high degree (assuming OP didn't have typos and such ).

[AR3-GP]

Yeah... that would make RB18 reach 350, while others couldn't reach 320kmh...

I challenged the legitimacy of this type of analysis on previous pages in the Merc thread but people defended it for whatever reason.

Well the Merc guys here take themselves extremely seriously, are smoking turd pod hopium by the bucket, and are having to face the fact their petulant golden calf is as hollow as a wine barrel so...they prolly aren’t the most objective and balanced people regarding posts like that one, fwiw.

The author of the work admitted that he made a typo which threw off the RB calculation. Also, the author mentioned that the r^2 for the fits were around 0.97. It does suggest that it's a decent model.

[F1DataAnalysis]

For what it's worth, I didn't see any significant difference from Bahrain until now and I think my assumption on drag difference is still valid

Decent analysis from reddit, thanks for sharing. I've noticed now a new rear wing on RB, looks a bit shallower than before, so that has a drag influence. Still, based on top speeds (323.2 and 316.6km/h) and assumption of 10HP more power of Ferrari, I got Ferrari with 8% more drag. That's very unrealistic in my view, and quite big. If an assumption is Honda being 10-15HP up on Ferrari, then Ferrari has 4-5% more drag. I think that's much closer to be honest.

Ferrari's good acceleration comes from torque, which is in line with their lower engine RPM compared to Honda and Mercedes, so I don't really see that as an indication of higher overall power. Then again, I'm not experienced in telemetry analysis, so I might have all this backwards in my head...

In any case, a lot of it comes from the difference in entire RW design, with RB going for a design that provides a large reduction in drag when DRS flap is open. Ferrari opted otherwise, they are said to bring a new RW for Miami. We might just see them completely level on top speed this weekend.

One thing that the "twitter analysis" does not consider is the different power deployment strategy of the different power units. It looks to me like Red Bull uses more power at the end of the straight (high speed) while Ferrari uses more power at the beginning (high acceleration). Not taking this into account would lead to underestimate Red Bull drag.

That is correct. For the analysis I considered constant Power and constant Drag, and both are untrue in reality. However, this is the best we can do I think as we don’t know the energy deployment (and D(v)) curves.

[F1DataAnalysis]

One thing that the "twitter analysis" does not consider is the different power deployment strategy of the different power units. It looks to me like Red Bull uses more power at the end of the straight (high speed) while Ferrari uses more power at the beginning (high acceleration). Not taking this into account would lead to underestimate Red Bull drag.

I think it's the gear ratio: this year Ferrari uses shorter gears, similar to Mercedes

The gear ratios should have a limited influence on acceleration, as the power band of these cars is very flat due to the fuel flow limit (almost constant power in 10500-12000 range, as the fuel flow is constant). So this is a marginal source of error. I would say

[F1DataAnalysis]

One thing that the "twitter analysis" does not consider is the different power deployment strategy of the different power units. It looks to me like Red Bull uses more power at the end of the straight (high speed) while Ferrari uses more power at the beginning (high acceleration). Not taking this into account would lead to underestimate Red Bull drag.

I think it's the gear ratio: this year Ferrari uses shorter gears, similar to Mercedes

Based on pre-season and in-season analysis, it looks like Ferrari uses longer gear than Mercedes (lower rpm for Ferrari). But this is not what I am referring to: I am talking about the different strategy of energy deployment, with Ferrari using more electric power at the beginning of the straight and then clipping at the end. Red Bull on the contrary seems to use their electric power more evenly, with little clipping at the end of the straight. Not taking this difference into account may lead to underestimate Red Bull's drag.

That is correct: Ferrari has the longest gears, and Mercedes the shortest. Maybe that is due to increased engine friction over 10500rpms compared to the other engines?

[SSScoffee]

I think it's the gear ratio: this year Ferrari uses shorter gears, similar to Mercedes

Based on pre-season and in-season analysis, it looks like Ferrari uses longer gear than Mercedes (lower rpm for Ferrari). But this is not what I am referring to: I am talking about the different strategy of energy deployment, with Ferrari using more electric power at the beginning of the straight and then clipping at the end. Red Bull on the contrary seems to use their electric power more evenly, with little clipping at the end of the straight. Not taking this difference into account may lead to underestimate Red Bull's drag.

That is correct: Ferrari has the longest gears, and Mercedes the shortest. Maybe that is due to increased engine friction over 10500rpms compared to the other engines?

RB has the longest, then Ferrari, then Mercedes

[matteosc]

Based on pre-season and in-season analysis, it looks like Ferrari uses longer gear than Mercedes (lower rpm for Ferrari). But this is not what I am referring to: I am talking about the different strategy of energy deployment, with Ferrari using more electric power at the beginning of the straight and then clipping at the end. Red Bull on the contrary seems to use their electric power more evenly, with little clipping at the end of the straight. Not taking this difference into account may lead to underestimate Red Bull's drag.

That is correct: Ferrari has the longest gears, and Mercedes the shortest. Maybe that is due to increased engine friction over 10500rpms compared to the other engines?

RB has the longest, then Ferrari, then Mercedes

Yes, you are correct. I meant to only compare Mercedes/Ferrari.

[matteosc]

One thing that the "twitter analysis" does not consider is the different power deployment strategy of the different power units. It looks to me like Red Bull uses more power at the end of the straight (high speed) while Ferrari uses more power at the beginning (high acceleration). Not taking this into account would lead to underestimate Red Bull drag.

I think it's the gear ratio: this year Ferrari uses shorter gears, similar to Mercedes

The gear ratios should have a limited influence on acceleration, as the power band of these cars is very flat due to the fuel flow limit (almost constant power in 10500-12000 range, as the fuel flow is constant). So this is a marginal source of error. I would say

I agree on the gear ratios, which have indeed limited influence. For the power curve you are correct when talking about the ICE, but then there is the electric part, which adds or subtract (clipping) power. This is what ultimately defines the power curve at the wheels.

[F1DataAnalysis]

I think it's the gear ratio: this year Ferrari uses shorter gears, similar to Mercedes

The gear ratios should have a limited influence on acceleration, as the power band of these cars is very flat due to the fuel flow limit (almost constant power in 10500-12000 range, as the fuel flow is constant). So this is a marginal source of error. I would say

I agree on the gear ratios, which have indeed limited influence. For the power curve you are correct when talking about the ICE, but then there is the electric part, which adds or subtract (clipping) power. This is what ultimately defines the power curve at the wheels.

Yes, and this influences the Power(speed) relationship more than the engine rpm does.

[sosic2121]

The gear ratios should have a limited influence on acceleration, as the power band of these cars is very flat due to the fuel flow limit (almost constant power in 10500-12000 range, as the fuel flow is constant). So this is a marginal source of error. I would say

I agree on the gear ratios, which have indeed limited influence. For the power curve you are correct when talking about the ICE, but then there is the electric part, which adds or subtract (clipping) power. This is what ultimately defines the power curve at the wheels.

Yes, and this influences the Power(speed) relationship more than the engine rpm does.

But mgu-k has a flat max power. I assume during Q there is enough energy to be able to deploy entire lap.

[F1DataAnalysis]

I agree on the gear ratios, which have indeed limited influence. For the power curve you are correct when talking about the ICE, but then there is the electric part, which adds or subtract (clipping) power. This is what ultimately defines the power curve at the wheels.

Yes, and this influences the Power(speed) relationship more than the engine rpm does.

But mgu-k has a flat max power. I assume during Q there is enough energy to be able to deploy entire lap.

That is an interesting possibility. It could be for most of the lap, but not on the whole lap, or at least not on all circuits: this is evident from the fact that we see engine clipping also in qualifying. However, MGU-K power is much closer to constant during qualy than in the race.

[zioture]

[Sevach]