Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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Which Grand Prix car width regulation do you prefer?

Wide cars, thanks! 2150mm please.
12
43%
Narrow cars, thanks! 1800mm please.
16
57%
 
Total votes: 28

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JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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I find the affection for the narrow-track-era Grand Prix cars to be most curious, so I decided to make a poll to see how many fans prefer the FIA 1800mm regulation (1998-2016) to the FISA/FIA 2150mm regulation (1972-1992). :)

Image

On the left, we have an example of an iconic wide-track-era Grand Prix car, namely the Ferrari 640. On the right, we have an example of an iconic narrow-track-era Grand Prix car, namely the Ferrari F2004. The images are scaled to about the same scale, and it's clear that the F2004 is noticeably narrower than the 640 -- the 640's front control arms are notably elongated compared to the F2004.

[Note that Bridgestone introduced front tyres which were 1"/25mm larger in diameter than the Goodyear front tyres when they entered F1, so the Bridgestone fronts are the same diameter as the rears (and are at the largest permissible 660mm), whereas the Goodyear fronts are a smaller diameter than the rears.]

I decided to leave the intermediate 2000mm width (1993-1997, 2017-present) out of the discussion, as am I interested in the fan preference between the two extremes, rather than the intermediate width which is the current regulation.

It's a little hard to imagine to imagine the 640 as a narrow-track car or the F2004 as a wide-track car, as they are so entwined to their respective eras with their respective looks, but perhaps someone who is better at Photoshop than me could try that out to see what each would have looked like under the opposite regulations. :)

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Stu
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Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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There are other tweaks that I would make; single element wings front and rear at a maximum width of wheel track at each end, rear wing at a max height of 750mm, minimal/mandated end-plates. I’d keep the current floor rules, but cap max length to 4.25m. If chassis widths need to increase to fully enclose a wider tank then so be it.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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Zynerji
110
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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I have no love for the archaic looking 90's cars. They look like something a boy-scout would make from cardboard today.

I'm very happy that the technology has evolved far past the simplistic cudgels that those cars represent. If I wanted that level of engineering brutality, I'd watch NASCAR.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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Two areas where car width is detrimental are starts, four into two doesnt go, and the effect on passing.

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Scorpaguy
6
Joined: 04 Mar 2010, 05:05

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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....or just keep it slim and skip the wings entirely:

Image

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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Scorpaguy wrote:
06 May 2022, 01:48
....or just keep it slim and skip the wings entirely:

https://img.hmn.com/fit-in/900x506/filt ... 00x600.jpg
Hear here :wink:

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JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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Zynerji wrote:
05 May 2022, 18:44
I have no love for the archaic looking 90's cars. They look like something a boy-scout would make from cardboard today.

I'm very happy that the technology has evolved far past the simplistic cudgels that those cars represent. If I wanted that level of engineering brutality, I'd watch NASCAR.
:roll:

They follow exactly the same principles as the modern cars (clean airflow to the downforce generating surfaces), they just happened to be designed by 5 people instead of 500 people, hence the more simple bodywork.



Arguably it is quite disrespectful to call the work of world-championship-winning designers like Dernie, Murray and Barnard as "engineering brutality". All eras of Grand Prix racing have cars which were state-of-the-art for the time.

What next, calling Ferdinand Porsche's Grand-Prix-winning Mercedes SSK archaic because it doesn't happen to have disc brakes or independent suspension? :wtf:

I could call a 2005 Grand Prix car simplistic (that's rather a rudimentary bargeboard on the below MP4/20 compared to a modern car, right?), but I'm not going to, because after all that was the state-of-the-art for the time due to less powerful computer design tools, even if they did have 500 people working on it by then.

Image

I'm sure we've all seen a MP4-20 or a F2004 in a display and thought "the bodywork seems so simple", but that was the state-of-the-art for the time! They are very similar to the 90's cars after all. Even when the rules were reset in 2009 the cars went back to quite simple bodywork for many years (despite having relatively powerful computers) before they started sprouting overly elaborate front wings and bargeboards.

johnny comelately wrote:
06 May 2022, 02:14
Scorpaguy wrote:
06 May 2022, 01:48
....or just keep it slim and skip the wings entirely:

https://img.hmn.com/fit-in/900x506/filt ... 00x600.jpg
Hear here :wink:
I made a thread on that topic previously:

JordanMugen wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 13:57
Formula Ford follows a "no downforce" philosophy and the regulations say clearly:
4.1 Any device designed to augment
aerodynamically the downthrust on the vehicle
is prohibited, as are aerofoils, nose fins or
spoilers of any type.
http://brsccff1600.co.uk/files/2018__FF ... 20Copy.pdf

Do you think that such Formula Ford aero regulations would ever be possible in F1? :wtf:

I'm guessing cornering accelerations would drop to around 2g (???) and lap times would increase by at least 30 seconds per lap.

While the slipstream in Formula Ford and Vee is already powerful (with it sometimes being advantageous to give up the lead and then retake it on the last lap), would the slipstream be even more powerful again in F1? :?:
:)

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Zynerji
110
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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JordanMugen wrote:
06 May 2022, 19:18
Zynerji wrote:
05 May 2022, 18:44
I have no love for the archaic looking 90's cars. They look like something a boy-scout would make from cardboard today.

I'm very happy that the technology has evolved far past the simplistic cudgels that those cars represent. If I wanted that level of engineering brutality, I'd watch NASCAR.
:roll:

They follow exactly the same principles as the modern cars (clean airflow to the downforce generating surfaces), they just happened to be designed by 5 people instead of 500 people, hence the more simple bodywork.



Arguably it is quite disrespectful to call the work of world-championship-winning designers like Dernie, Murray and Barnard as "engineering brutality". All eras of Grand Prix racing have cars which were state-of-the-art for the time.

What next, calling Ferdinand Porsche's Grand-Prix-winning Mercedes SSK archaic because it doesn't happen to have disc brakes or independent suspension? :wtf:

I could call a 2005 Grand Prix car simplistic (that's rather a rudimentary bargeboard on the below MP4/20 compared to a modern car, right?), but I'm not going to, because after all that was the state-of-the-art for the time due to less powerful computer design tools, even if they did have 500 people working on it by then.

https://i.imgur.com/Vom31No.jpg

I'm sure we've all seen a MP4-20 or a F2004 in a display and thought "the bodywork seems so simple", but that was the state-of-the-art for the time! They are very similar to the 90's cars after all. Even when the rules were reset in 2009 the cars went back to quite simple bodywork for many years (despite having relatively powerful computers) before they started sprouting overly elaborate front wings and bargeboards.

johnny comelately wrote:
06 May 2022, 02:14
Scorpaguy wrote:
06 May 2022, 01:48
....or just keep it slim and skip the wings entirely:

https://img.hmn.com/fit-in/900x506/filt ... 00x600.jpg
Hear here :wink:
I made a thread on that topic previously:

JordanMugen wrote:
04 Nov 2019, 13:57
Formula Ford follows a "no downforce" philosophy and the regulations say clearly:
4.1 Any device designed to augment
aerodynamically the downthrust on the vehicle
is prohibited, as are aerofoils, nose fins or
spoilers of any type.
http://brsccff1600.co.uk/files/2018__FF ... 20Copy.pdf

Do you think that such Formula Ford aero regulations would ever be possible in F1? :wtf:

I'm guessing cornering accelerations would drop to around 2g (???) and lap times would increase by at least 30 seconds per lap.

While the slipstream in Formula Ford and Vee is already powerful (with it sometimes being advantageous to give up the lead and then retake it on the last lap), would the slipstream be even more powerful again in F1? :?:
:)
I find it amazing the lengths some will go to attack someone over their personal preferences and beliefs.🙄

Yet, nothing you said has any effect to change my mind. You don't have to like it. They were brutal. In every measurable dimension. Hell, the compound curves didn't really show up in most bodywork until the late 90s.

I like what I like. And I make no apology for that.

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JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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Zynerji wrote:
06 May 2022, 23:41
I find it amazing the lengths some will go to attack someone over their personal preferences and beliefs.🙄
How is that an attack and not merely an explanation? :)

Dernie's interview certainly helped me to realise that the more things change, the more they stay the same, I found it very interesting myself. :)

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RZS10
359
Joined: 07 Dec 2013, 01:23

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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It's a 641 but they weren't that dissimilar
Image
Image
Image
Image

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JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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Lovely pictures! :)

I think we can assume that designers will always build the car to the maximum permitted width (though if maximum width was either unrestricted or some enormous value like 5000mm I wonder what they would choose? in recent years we have certainly seen the designers having no qualms with taking the unrestricted length up to values similar to a F150 or long wheelbase S-class), so the FIA has a lot of power to determine the looks of the Grand Prix cars.

Do folks find it interesting that all the cars from '72 on have largely (pardon the pun) been built to the full maximum permitted width?

Could some of the smaller teams with less powerful V8 engines have found improvements in agility and/or aerodynamic drag by building a narrower car below the full 2150mm and asking Pirelli or Goodyear to make narrower rear tyres for them?

I.e., is it a fallacy that designing the widest permissible car and fitting it with the widest permissible tyres would yield the quickest design -- particularly around places like Monaco or Monza/Hockenheim where either the agility would be rewarded or the lower drag would be rewarded respectively (trading off inferior performance in the traction zones out of the chicanes at Monza and the old Hockenheim)?

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vorticism
323
Joined: 01 Mar 2022, 20:20

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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Why not both?

Image
Thanks. Deserves points but we're not in a voting section. The 641 is one of the F1 cars, elegant, simple but not forced simplicity a la 2009-current. The F2004 still looks quite good, would be better with that classic red/carbon Ferrari livery as on the 641. An F2008 or something from that year would provide a stark contrast.
𓄀

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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vorticism wrote:
07 May 2022, 03:26
Why not both?

Image
I REEAAALLY was annoyed that this car wasn't taken on to develop further. Wanted to see it with more powerful engines and stuff.

The other Nissan too, the one with the front wheel drive. I feel that car wasn't managed properly. The power train issues were plain to see. I think a change to battery KERs and some aero tweaks would have made it a serious contender. I was surprised no one had decided to buy that project and further develop it.
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Stu
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Joined: 02 Nov 2019, 10:05
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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Totally agree PZ, on both counts.
The LMP1/GTR would be perfect for the Hypercar rules. To expect it to be on the pace in the timeframe that they were given was too much.

Lots of time for Ben Bowlby & Ricardo Divilla.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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jjn9128
778
Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: Wide vs narrow Grand Prix cars

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
07 May 2022, 17:00
I REEAAALLY was annoyed that this car wasn't taken on to develop further. Wanted to see it with more powerful engines and stuff.

The other Nissan too, the one with the front wheel drive. I feel that car wasn't managed properly. The power train issues were plain to see. I think a change to battery KERs and some aero tweaks would have made it a serious contender. I was surprised no one had decided to buy that project and further develop it.
A more powerful engine would undermine the core concept of the Deltawing - half weight, half drag, half power, half fuel. The LM-GTR would have probably been okay had Nissan not unfathomably moved the project up a year resulting in a rush and much of the hybrid system not being ready.

Bowlby is a genius and deserved more.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica