Ferrari F1-75

[PhillipM]

To stop the rambling nonsense again, as you can Ferrari have similar or very slightly longer ratios than the RB for most gears, with the odd exception like 5th.

Either way it certain isn't a performance differentiator. If Ferrari came with new circuit-specific gear ratios for the next race you can bet the difference would be in the hundreds of a second.

[wowgr8]

They were. They're at or very close to the weight limit now.

Source:

Red Bull lost 4kg at Imola and went from around 2 tenths behind Ferrari to 2 tenths ahead. Ferrari supposedly losing 5kg and going backwards makes no sense, I don't think that amus report is true

[S D]

From https://scuderiafans.com/

Ferrari had deliberately held back in the first five races, because they first wanted to fully understand their car in order to squeeze as much performance as possible from the initial specification, while also working to reduce bouncing. And of course, because the Maranello team has to operate under the budget cap, which leads to several difficulties.

Larger update packages are being evaluated in Maranello and will only be run only after Ferrari is sure they will offer significant improvement. Logic says that Red Bull used up more of their development budget early in the season. “They can’t continue like this. At some point they will have to stop development.” – Mattia Binotto said.

For now both Charles Leclerc and Carlos Sainz are using their second power unit and according to German automobile magazine ‘Auto Motor und Sport’, Scuderia Ferrari were allowed to modify the power unit (PU2) because of a problem with reliability. Starting with the Spanish Grand Prix, the first power unit will only be used during the Friday practice sessions. At the same time, AMuS confirms that Ferrari will introduce the new hybrid system with PU3.

[Andi76]

So much for low drag sidepods. Evidence so far shows these side pods are made for downforce!

I think both is right and its about definition here. I have data available for the F1-2000, the source is Ferrari itself. The contribution of drag at 16/46mm ride height at medium downforce was :

Front Wing CD 0,123 13,2%
Rear Wing CD 0,297 31,8%
Underfloor CD 0,099 10,6%
Front Wheels CD 0,150 16,0%
Rear Wheels CD 0,187 20,1%
Turning Vane CD 0,023 2,4%
Other CD 0,055 5,9%

Even if aerodynamics are "different" today, a lot of things have not changed. That being that the rear-wing, also today especially with the new regulations, is the biggest contributior to drag. Second is the wheels and the front wing, while the sidepods themself do not have a big effect in that regard. But CFD of the F1-2000 also showed clearly that these sidepods reduced drag by managing the airflow hitting the rear, especially the rear wheels. Today its not much different. CFD in comparison to "micro-sidepods" showed that the sidepods of the F1-75 have less drag than "micro-sidepods", but also "give" more downforce. So they probably are indeed both - "low-drag" but also made for downforce.

[dialtone]

I would add telemetry to this as well:


Lap 14, 0.001 difference between the 2 laps, LEC is 3sec behind so no slipstream nor DRS.

There is little to no top speed difference in race trim with no DRS. It's when the DRS is on, like in quali, that you start to see the big speed difference between F1-75 and RB-18.

Probably true that RB-18 is slightly less draggy, but it's minimal and dwarfed by the DRS effectiveness between the 2.

[Andi76]

Not yet, but they will reasonably be faster than Miami, so it does not matter. You can pick any circuit in which they went/will go faster than 323km/h and see that gear ratio is not the issue.
Gear ratio is the "direct" problem only in absolute maximum speed of the car, but in reality there are so many other factor, such as (1) drag (2) ICE power (3) MGU power output strategy (you need to spread a fix amount of energy around the lap) (4) DRS flap size.

So that means that we know that they have a very high drag car

Ferrari seems to have more inherent drag then Red Bull (or better, RB has very little drag compared to everyone else). On top of that, Ferrari is using higher downforce (and therefore higher drag) than Red Bull, so the difference in term of top speed is pretty large. If they used the same level of downforce they would probably be closer, but still more drag for Ferrari.

Where do you know the "real" drag of the Ferrari from???

[Stu]

From https://scuderiafans.com/

Ferrari had deliberately held back in the first five races, because they first wanted to fully understand their car in order to squeeze as much performance as possible from the initial specification, while also working to reduce bouncing. And of course, because the Maranello team has to operate under the budget cap, which leads to several difficulties.

Larger update packages are being evaluated in Maranello and will only be run only after Ferrari is sure they will offer significant improvement. Logic says that Red Bull used up more of their development budget early in the season. “They can’t continue like this. At some point they will have to stop development.” – Mattia Binotto said.

For now both Charles Leclerc and Carlos Sainz are using their second power unit and according to German automobile magazine ‘Auto Motor und Sport’, Scuderia Ferrari were allowed to modify the power unit (PU2) because of a problem with reliability. Starting with the Spanish Grand Prix, the first power unit will only be used during the Friday practice sessions. At the same time, AMuS confirms that Ferrari will introduce the new hybrid system with PU3.

They are/have taken a similar position to Mercedes in this respect, the only difference being the performance that they have been able to extract from the car.
Flip the results between them and the press would simply make the same reports but change the names.
Ferrari fans would be calling for Binotto’s head…..

[henry]

Except you are wrong again. The cars can't just rev a little more as they are all restricted by fuel usage and fuel flow. If they could just rev the engine some more then the Ferrari's wouldn't be topping out on top speed where they are. They would be able to go all the way to where the Red Bull is. The gear ratio's actually play a huge part in how a car performs on acceleration and top speed.

What a load of nonsense, the RPM limit is 15000rpm, peak flow/power is about 10.5-11k or so, these engines are never restricted by the gear ratios for top speeds because they never operate even close to the limiter, the difference of a few hundred rpms on top speeds between the RB and the Ferrari is probably only measurable in their own simulators, it's going to be fractions of a percent.

The 15000rpm limit is a complete red herring. They hardly ever go above 12000. Peak power is around the mid point of the Rev range they use at max power demand, around 11200rpm.

When they run at max power request down a straight it does not mean the power level is constant. It is delivered at several levels in discrete ERS modes. Highest at the beginning of the straight, e-supercharge, followed by a mode in which the K at 120kW is driven by a combination of the H and the ES, and then,if they run out of ES, self-sustain mode in which the K is driven at less than 120kW by the H.

A quick look at speed traces on the longest straight at Miami shows Ferrari dropping to a lower power level before the end. The speed trace actually goes down at the end of the straight showing they don’t have enough power to overcome the drag at the peak speed they reached in a higher power ERS mode.

So you’re right, gear ratios are not the deciding factor, but I think you’re wrong to assert that power is constant.

[Tzk]

The 15000rpm limit is a complete red herring. They hardly ever go above 12000. Peak power is around the mid point of the Rev range they use at max power demand, around 11200rpm.

This. The whole point about running in the rev range from 10500 to about 12500 is that they don't drop below 10500 when they shift to the next gear during acceleration. However the losses inside the engine get bigger with higher revs, but the available fuel doesn't. So ideally they'd always run at 10500, but then there's the gearbox

[.poz]

if Ferrari came with new circuit-specific gear ratios for the next race you can bet the difference would be in the hundreds of a second.

they can't, gear ratio are frozen. AFAIK all team can change gear ratio only once at the end of 2023 season

i don't know if it' true but i read an article about Ferrari using longer gear ratio at tests in Spain and the shorter current setup in Bahrein

[AR3-GP]

if Ferrari came with new circuit-specific gear ratios for the next race you can bet the difference would be in the hundreds of a second.

they can't, gear ratio are frozen. AFAIK all team can change gear ratio only once at the end of 2023 season

i don't know if it' true but i read an article about Ferrari using longer gear ratio at tests in Spain and the shorter current setup in Bahrein

1 gear ratio change in-season is allowed.

[PhillipM]

A quick look at speed traces on the longest straight at Miami shows Ferrari dropping to a lower power level before the end. The speed trace actually goes down at the end of the straight showing they don’t have enough power to overcome the drag at the peak speed they reached in a higher power ERS mode.

So you’re right, gear ratios are not the deciding factor, but I think you’re wrong to assert that power is constant.

But that's nothing to do with the argument about gear ratios, that's a separate variable, so pretty irrelevant to what was being pushed.

His arguement was "The cars can't just rev a little more" - when they answer is, they can, they can rev a lot more, because they usually run from 10500-12500rpm to stay at peak power, but if they need to rev out a little more than that your losses are just some pumping and frictional losses, you're not going to suddenly drop off a cliff for power.

[matteosc]

So that means that we know that they have a very high drag car

Ferrari seems to have more inherent drag then Red Bull (or better, RB has very little drag compared to everyone else). On top of that, Ferrari is using higher downforce (and therefore higher drag) than Red Bull, so the difference in term of top speed is pretty large. If they used the same level of downforce they would probably be closer, but still more drag for Ferrari.

Where do you know the "real" drag of the Ferrari from???

Come on, everyone accepts that Red Bull has less drag then Ferrari. I am not claiming that I know the exact number, but if we cannot say anything unless we have proven and peer-review data we would not have a blog. I stand by what I posted before: qualitatively Ferrari has a less efficient aero than Red Bull.
If you have any indication that Ferrari has less drag than Red Bull, pleas go ahead, I am very curious.

[matteosc]

Except you are wrong again. The cars can't just rev a little more as they are all restricted by fuel usage and fuel flow. If they could just rev the engine some more then the Ferrari's wouldn't be topping out on top speed where they are. They would be able to go all the way to where the Red Bull is. The gear ratio's actually play a huge part in how a car performs on acceleration and top speed.

What a load of nonsense, the RPM limit is 15000rpm, peak flow/power is about 10.5-11k or so, these engines are never restricted by the gear ratios for top speeds because they never operate even close to the limiter, the difference of a few hundred rpms on top speeds between the RB and the Ferrari is probably only measurable in their own simulators, it's going to be fractions of a percent.

The 15000rpm limit is a complete red herring. They hardly ever go above 12000. Peak power is around the mid point of the Rev range they use at max power demand, around 11200rpm.

When they run at max power request down a straight it does not mean the power level is constant. It is delivered at several levels in discrete ERS modes. Highest at the beginning of the straight, e-supercharge, followed by a mode in which the K at 120kW is driven by a combination of the H and the ES, and then, if they run out of ES, self-sustain mode in which the K is driven at less than 120kW by the H.

A quick look at speed traces on the longest straight at Miami shows Ferrari dropping to a lower power level before the end. The speed trace actually goes down at the end of the straight showing they don’t have enough power to overcome the drag at the peak speed they reached in a higher power ERS mode.

So you’re right, gear ratios are not the deciding factor, but I think you’re wrong to assert that power is constant.

I agree with your analysis, I think you explained the situation very well. There are significant differences between teams in the way they handle this "power delivery" process, and I think the discrepancy in top speed between RB and Ferrari is also due to this.

[bagajohny]

Miami GP Telemetry: RedBull is not ahead for top speed

https://www.formulapassion.it/opinioni/ ... 16933.html

Great article. Very helpful analysis. Thanks for sharing.