Mercedes W13

[Zynerji]

This is what **** me off about the new rules and regulations

They come up with new rules to "make racing closer" and I presume to end mercs dominance

But the they totally hobble teams trying to compete so that of a team gets a jump, no one can respond.

They restrict with budget, they restrict testing, they restrict tools, they restrict suspension.
It doesn’t feel done for closer racing.

Project end mercedes chances for good and do what it takes to make max break Lewis stats.
They have been trying to slow mercedes down since the rules to ban engine modes.
Each year they come up with something. 2021 floor regs and 2022 windtunnel and budget caps were the masterstrokes.
They also gave Newey ruled he woulf be best at basically gauranteeing Max has the best chances to get 7 titles.
But i feel Mercedes will bounce back.
They cannot forget how to make good cars.

What an awful take on F1. Can anything be done without being twisted into a personal attack against Lewis?

[Henri]

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/110870/m ... an-do.html

He said they can't save weight on paint - nowhere does it say they can't save weight on parts like they've already done once or like RBR did this race

If they go all black thats 5grams saved.. why can't the go black again?

[VacuousFlamboyant]

The overheating problem now seems to be related to a coolant leak. They need to sort this out. But so far the car has made good progress. I feel it only needs setup and suspension upgrades now and a little bit more refinement to challenge for wins.

[...] The tyre warm up needs solving real fast as that is stopping them qualifying higher. [...]

I'm with Ringo. The new floor proved to be a solid step. Tyre warmup has been often the result of the car not being able to run at the ride height it was designed for. Once they refine the "porpoising package" it will resolve itself. Then, any performance upgrade will improve on this situation.

I think Mercedes had less tyre degradation this weekend. Front tyres with the Soft compound were better than anyone. Then again, lowering the front in FP3 reintroduced porpoising.

Once they stiffen the floor even more and improve front suspension, I have no doubt it will be the fastest car out there. Suspension work over the kerbs at sector 3 left a few tenths compared to Redbull, for example.

I think they have yet to find a good baseline for suspension rebound. It should take more time for it to extend back out to its original position. More damping as it rebounds at a softer rate. Decompression at the front for both RB and Ferrari seems better.

[rifrafs2kees]

They've lost the downforce in fixing the bouncing. Miami spec car would have been fastest in sector 3 and slower in the other 2 sectors.

Can't have it both ways, at least for now...

Nothing anywhere suggests that so please share your source. The team has consistently maintained that they refused to trade d/f to fix bouncing and I'm inclined to believe them unless you have a source.

I would hypothesize that they're missing performance updates that others have hence their d/f might still be at the baseline numbers while others have progressed. Also let's not forget they are bouncing through high speed corners still which is where they're losing time.

Also this puts to rest once in for all the drag BS - when running its designed ride height the car is intuitively slippery af.

Watch Ted's Post Qualy Notebook (Sky F1), he discusses the reasons for Merc's bouncing and the solution.

My attempt at a summary:

1) Wind tunnel didn't show up purpoising as they are not allowed by the FIA to run the airflow fast enough
2) Also their CFD models were not sophisticated enough to model it theoretically
3) They believed the floor would flex down sealing the floor edge like skirts and their models showed this would give them a huge amount of downforce
4) Problem was this turned out to lead to the bouncing
5) Solution was to stop the flexing by strengthening it and the floor edge detail to prevent sealing the floor

The solution has dramatically reduced the bouncing (whilst adding a lot of weight) but they no longer have a flexi floor sealing the floor which was giving them huge amounts of downforce at lower speeds as per their models.

As Lando Norris pointed out at the last race, the GPS trace showed Merc had always been quickest in slow corners

(Disclaimer: all words are relative so when I say seal the floor I don't mean a perfect seal, just relatively speaking)

Logical and plausible explanation. Thanks

[PlatinumZealot]

Porpoising is about 90% solved. Still have some in the long high speed turns.

The inner skin of the floor has been ribbed or "waffled" i suspect to add stiffness. This would be maybe 500g or so on each side.

Exciting times ahead.

[holeindalip]

Porpoising is about 90% solved. Still have some in the long high speed turns.

The inner skin of the floor has been ribbed or "waffled" i suspect to add stiffness. This would be maybe 500g or so on each side.

Exciting times ahead.

I agree, if they fast track some of their paused upgrades they will be able to be a headache in the top two’s side most definitely…..

[outer_bongolia]

These visually small changes at this stage are a good sign because it means the concept is sound.

I am sorry to say this, but i doubt it is. Why are all the other teams going in a different direction? And why does Mercedes have so many problems? I think they just have the problem that they cannot change this concept in a way that they would need to. They cannot add the pressurisation zone under the sidepod inlets because their inlets go all the way down to the floor. They cannot get more air to the rear and beamwing to drive the floor, because their concept required a huge airbox and engine-cover.They did this to get more air over the top of the diffusor, and now they have to stay with that, because they cannot change everything from the sidepod inlets to the rear-axle. But this would be necessary to do changes like that and this would literally mean a new car. Just adding bigger sidepods, like some people suggested, would not work, because this means less air over the top of the diffusor, but thats an essential part of their concept and they sacrificed airflow to the rear-and beamwing because of that and their whole cooling-system was designed with the intention to get as much air as possible over the top of the diffusor. And now they just cannot change it. I think Mercedes has the problem that they are basically trapped within their concept.

I hope you watched the race

[mantikos]

Nothing anywhere suggests that so please share your source. The team has consistently maintained that they refused to trade d/f to fix bouncing and I'm inclined to believe them unless you have a source.

I would hypothesize that they're missing performance updates that others have hence their d/f might still be at the baseline numbers while others have progressed. Also let's not forget they are bouncing through high speed corners still which is where they're losing time.

Also this puts to rest once in for all the drag BS - when running its designed ride height the car is intuitively slippery af.

Watch Ted's Post Qualy Notebook (Sky F1), he discusses the reasons for Merc's bouncing and the solution.

My attempt at a summary:

1) Wind tunnel didn't show up purpoising as they are not allowed by the FIA to run the airflow fast enough
2) Also their CFD models were not sophisticated enough to model it theoretically
3) They believed the floor would flex down sealing the floor edge like skirts and their models showed this would give them a huge amount of downforce
4) Problem was this turned out to lead to the bouncing
5) Solution was to stop the flexing by strengthening it and the floor edge detail to prevent sealing the floor

The solution has dramatically reduced the bouncing (whilst adding a lot of weight) but they no longer have a flexi floor sealing the floor which was giving them huge amounts of downforce at lower speeds as per their models.

As Lando Norris pointed out at the last race, the GPS trace showed Merc had always been quickest in slow corners

(Disclaimer: all words are relative so when I say seal the floor I don't mean a perfect seal, just relatively speaking)

Logical and plausible explanation. Thanks

Went back and watched - he starts the show by starting that's his hypothesis based on what an external party (former aerodynamicist) independent of the team suggested. While a plausible hypothesis, this isn't the team saying that. Heck he even said he doesn't know whether the new floor is stiffened or just reshaped and doesn't even mention the additional weight. Sorry, not authoritative.

[Airshifter]

Maybe we'll get lucky at some point and the team will tell us what they actually did in detail. Until then, all the speculation in the world is just that. If it were hard evidence then it would be something hard to argue about as photos would exist.


In any case, whatever changes they made helped the car in a major way. I hope they can stay in the fight and have a car capable of taking it to RB and Ferrari.

[mantikos]

Maybe we'll get lucky at some point and the team will tell us what they actually did in detail. Until then, all the speculation in the world is just that. If it were hard evidence then it would be something hard to argue about as photos would exist.


In any case, whatever changes they made helped the car in a major way. I hope they can stay in the fight and have a car capable of taking it to RB and Ferrari.

[Henri]

Car looks gorgeous when it's planted on the ground..if it was black even more aesthetically pleasing

[mrluke]

Car looks gorgeous when it's planted on the ground..if it was black even more aesthetically pleasing

If the fix was to keep the floor off the ground it doesn't look like its working in that picture!

[Andi76]

These visually small changes at this stage are a good sign because it means the concept is sound.

I am sorry to say this, but i doubt it is. Why are all the other teams going in a different direction? And why does Mercedes have so many problems? I think they just have the problem that they cannot change this concept in a way that they would need to. They cannot add the pressurisation zone under the sidepod inlets because their inlets go all the way down to the floor. They cannot get more air to the rear and beamwing to drive the floor, because their concept required a huge airbox and engine-cover.They did this to get more air over the top of the diffusor, and now they have to stay with that, because they cannot change everything from the sidepod inlets to the rear-axle. But this would be necessary to do changes like that and this would literally mean a new car. Just adding bigger sidepods, like some people suggested, would not work, because this means less air over the top of the diffusor, but thats an essential part of their concept and they sacrificed airflow to the rear-and beamwing because of that and their whole cooling-system was designed with the intention to get as much air as possible over the top of the diffusor. And now they just cannot change it. I think Mercedes has the problem that they are basically trapped within their concept.

I hope you watched the race

Yes, i watched it. I assume you try to tell me that i was wrong(what is possible) because the W13 did well at one race on the best known track, where no car had any problems with porpoising? Personally i think Mercedes has made a step forward, but i also think one good performance on a well known track does not mean a lot. And i still think the concept is inferior to Red Bulls and Ferraris.

[Shakeman]

This is a pure guess as to the function of the 'floor flap', does this device generate a lossy seal such that it equalises the pressure underfloor at high speeds to prevent the 'over abundance' of suction which has caused much of the porpoising?

GA in The Race says it sets up a vortex to 'seal' the floor down stream which maybe true but I think it probably does more.

I wonder if this floor flap will soon be copied on other cars particularly as it appears to be adjustable and probably widen the setup window on a track to track basis.

[Quantum]

but i also think one good performance on a well known track does not mean a lot. And i still think the concept is inferior to Red Bulls and Ferraris.

Please can you give a technical reason for that?

It's well reasoned that if your car performs well at Barca it will do well at the majority of tracks on the calendar.
I see more reasons to be optimistic if the car performs well here.

Also, Given the W13 is different from both RB and Ferrari concepts, you give absolutely no reason to back up what you are saying. The Ferrari and RB concepts are different between themselves.
The porpoising of the W13 has been addressed and was no worse than Ferrari.

The Mercedes also is pretty much in raw spec right now. The floor has been stiffened, and the rest of the car has not gone the usual refinements we have seen from RB and Ferrari.
It is also carrying far more weight. The team have now got a stable base to throw developments at it, and I cant help but think throwing opinions around without even giving a reason why.

My reasons why the W13 could eventually challenge RB, as I feel at this stage it's already quick enough to challenge Ferrari in Sainz hands at least.

Weightloss. More weight to lose relative RB and Ferrari.

Further floor developments. Having suffered the most, they have the most to gain.

Staged development upgrade path. Ferrari had a big upgrade package and Merc closed a large portion of the gap with less of performance upgrade and more of a problem solving exercise.