2022 Monaco Grand Prix - Monte Carlo, May 27 - 29

[sosic2121]

Size and weight is whats killing F1.

+1

[JordanMugen]

It was a joy to see F1 cars go around Monaco in Free Practice.

Monaco FP on a Friday?

When did that start?

This year.

Size and weight is whats killing F1. Ground effect was in F1 decades ago. But the cars were much smaller and lighter.

The cars then were 15cm wider than now actually, see the wide ground effect Williams below. Discussion here: viewtopic.php?t=30310



Even with 2.4L V8 engines and 13" wheels, 2022 F1 cars would still be 700kg (they were about 645kg in 2013, with many additional safety measures since then). Indeed, there have been over 80kg of safety improvements since 2005 and about 55kg since 2013. So about 700kg is the lower bound of what the cars with modern safety equipment would weigh, unless you went to say a 1L non-turbo engine formula and say a novel delta-wing type car.

IMO, the length of the gearbox & associated bodywork for the car wheelbase, the wider tyres since '17, and the length of the control arms for the car track width, are only a very minor contribution to the car weight. Most of the weight gain since 2013 has been in the core parts of the car like heavier hybrid power units and the safety reinforcements, halo and larger minimum dimensions for the monocoque.

It's all very well to say the cars are heavy and cumbersome (which is true), but the only easy weight savings you would find would be going back to 13" wheels (about 18kg saving). You are going to struggle to find weight savings anywhere else without major changes to core elements of the car, or without undoing safety improvements, or without undoing improvements intended to help taller and larger drivers (increase in driver weight from 75kg to 80kg, increase in minimum cockpit dimensions in 2022 -- you can't undo these, it would be unfair to taller and larger drivers).

It would be curious to find out how much weight would be saved by cutting maximum wheelbase by 300mm so the teams would be compelled to build much shorter cars, but IMO the regulators would probably only find 10-15kg saving by doing that. It would help, but there are likely no ground breaking weight savings to be found that way IMO.

It's easy to say "the cars are physically wider and longer than 10 years ago, and they are heavier than 10 years ago, therefore they must be heavier primarily because they are wider and longer". But the weight gain is not primarily due to the car size. The weight gain in 2017 was only 15kg from increasing the car dimensions (plus 5kg from the wider tyres, for a total of only 20kg weight increase compared to 2016, in exchange for being 4-5s/lap faster).

Then of the 46kg weight gain for 2022 over 2021, over 20kg is safety improvements, 1kg to the power unit, 2kg to the wheel covers and fairings, 18kg to the 18" wheels. It's only the 18" wheel bit that you could undo without aversely affecting safety or aerodynamic objectives.

[vanburin]

Thats true! I think it will be a weekend of struggles for Merc. PU potential issues with Russel on the long runs, Hamilton not getting to grips with the car at all. Almost sending it into the wall.

Quickly come crashing down from last week. I wonder what they changed.

Nothing has changed. It was clear Mercedes was struggling in S3 in Spain, which foreshadowed their expected results in Monaco. Not to mention that Monaco has notoriously been a weakness for Mercedes based on their car design philosophies in past years.

[chrisc90]

Thats true! I think it will be a weekend of struggles for Merc. PU potential issues with Russel on the long runs, Hamilton not getting to grips with the car at all. Almost sending it into the wall.

Quickly come crashing down from last week. I wonder what they changed.

Nothing has changed. It was clear Mercedes was struggling in S3 in Spain, which foreshadowed their expected results in Monaco. Not to mention that Monaco has notoriously been a weakness for Mercedes based on their car design philosophies in past years.

They werent bouncing that much in Spain, thats for certain. Which brought me to the question of what had changed. If it was just the track thats bumpy, you would see every car on the grid doing the same, which then the bouncing would be completely understandable, but there are cars on the grid that look very hooked up and stable through the corners, so its not the track to blame.

[vanburin]

They werent bouncing that much in Spain, thats for certain. Which brought me to the question of what had changed. If it was just the track thats bumpy, you would see every car on the grid doing the same, which then the bouncing would be completely understandable, but there are cars on the grid that look very hooked up and stable through the corners, so its not the track to blame.

Their bouncing today was suspension driven, specifically the front, and likely the cars were set up too stiff. It was noted that the heave spring was changed on George's car.

[PlatinumZealot]

Two drivers from the top four will bin it in qualifying. Mark my words.

[Spoutnik]

Two drivers from the top four will bin it in qualifying. Mark my words.

VER and LEC

[Zynerji]

Two drivers from the top four will bin it in qualifying. Mark my words.

Probably a safe bet.

Might be the race decider, for sure.

[JordanMugen]

Two drivers from the top four will bin it in qualifying. Mark my words.

Probably a safe bet.

Might be the race decider, for sure.

Ye of little faith. The top drivers are pros, they should be fine.

[dialtone]

I wouldn’t rule out that RBR will find pace for quali in fp3. I do think they were in lower engine mode and naybe had not great setup. I don’t know if that will fix the time enough, engine not being so important here for example, but i would bet they will be closer than this.

[SirBastianVettel]

I wouldn’t rule out that RBR will find pace for quali in fp3. I do think they were in lower engine mode and naybe had not great setup. I don’t know if that will fix the time enough, engine not being so important here for example, but i would bet they will be closer than this.

Is this based on telemetry or your gut feeling? Because I don’t see Red Bull making up the one-lap deficit to Ferrari, especially not here in Monaco. They’ve been behind on one-lap pace for a while now. And Ferrari will have Giovinazzi on an adrenaline drip all night in the simulator.

[dialtone]

I wouldn’t rule out that RBR will find pace for quali in fp3. I do think they were in lower engine mode and naybe had not great setup. I don’t know if that will fix the time enough, engine not being so important here for example, but i would bet they will be closer than this.

Is this based on telemetry or your gut feeling? Because I don’t see Red Bull making up the one-lap deficit to Ferrari, especially not here in Monaco. They’ve been behind on one-lap pace for a while now. And Ferrari will have Giovinazzi on an adrenaline drip all night in the simulator.

The setup is gut feeling, the engine is a bit of telemetry, they weren’t so deficient in acceleration in past races, so either the engine is fine but setup is very wrong or a mix or engine very low and setup fine.

It’s possible I’m looking too much into it and they are just weaker, but 0.5s behind is an eternity, I would be shocked.

[Sevach]

I wouldn’t rule out that RBR will find pace for quali in fp3. I do think they were in lower engine mode and naybe had not great setup. I don’t know if that will fix the time enough, engine not being so important here for example, but i would bet they will be closer than this.

Is this based on telemetry or your gut feeling? Because I don’t see Red Bull making up the one-lap deficit to Ferrari, especially not here in Monaco. They’ve been behind on one-lap pace for a while now. And Ferrari will have Giovinazzi on an adrenaline drip all night in the simulator.

I don't think Perez will challenge, if they get Verstappen's car to his liking i believe(so no data) he may be in sniffing range to capitalize on any mistake.

Charles is the favorite no doubt.

[chrisc90]

Chances of Ferrari being able to battle with Red Bull pit stop strategy? Since the pits are a big one here, RB have typically been the faster team. Of course it all depends on how much of a gap the leader manages to pull on opening laps in clear air.

Lets hope for some rain mid race which will spice it up a bit.

[Mogster]

It was a joy to see F1 cars go around Monaco in Free Practice.

Monaco FP on a Friday?

When did that start?

This year.

Size and weight is whats killing F1. Ground effect was in F1 decades ago. But the cars were much smaller and lighter.

The cars then were 15cm wider than now actually, see the wide ground effect Williams below. Discussion here: viewtopic.php?t=30310

https://cdn-8.latimages.com/images/mgl/ ... MON112.jpg

Even with 2.4L V8 engines and 13" wheels, 2022 F1 cars would still be 700kg (they were about 645kg in 2013, with many additional safety measures since then). Indeed, there have been over 80kg of safety improvements since 2005 and about 55kg since 2013. So about 700kg is the lower bound of what the cars with modern safety equipment would weigh, unless you went to say a 1L non-turbo engine formula and say a novel delta-wing type car.

IMO, the length of the gearbox & associated bodywork for the car wheelbase, the wider tyres since '17, and the length of the control arms for the car track width, are only a very minor contribution to the car weight. Most of the weight gain since 2013 has been in the core parts of the car like heavier hybrid power units and the safety reinforcements, halo and larger minimum dimensions for the monocoque.

It's all very well to say the cars are heavy and cumbersome (which is true), but the only easy weight savings you would find would be going back to 13" wheels (about 18kg saving). You are going to struggle to find weight savings anywhere else without major changes to core elements of the car, or without undoing safety improvements, or without undoing improvements intended to help taller and larger drivers (increase in driver weight from 75kg to 80kg, increase in minimum cockpit dimensions in 2022 -- you can't undo these, it would be unfair to taller and larger drivers).

It would be curious to find out how much weight would be saved by cutting maximum wheelbase by 300mm so the teams would be compelled to build much shorter cars, but IMO the regulators would probably only find 10-15kg saving by doing that. It would help, but there are likely no ground breaking weight savings to be found that way IMO.

It's easy to say "the cars are physically wider and longer than 10 years ago, and they are heavier than 10 years ago, therefore they must be heavier primarily because they are wider and longer". But the weight gain is not primarily due to the car size. The weight gain in 2017 was only 15kg from increasing the car dimensions (plus 5kg from the wider tyres, for a total of only 20kg weight increase compared to 2016, in exchange for being 4-5s/lap faster).

Then of the 46kg weight gain for 2022 over 2021, over 20kg is safety improvements, 1kg to the power unit, 2kg to the wheel covers and fairings, 18kg to the 18" wheels. It's only the 18" wheel bit that you could undo without aversely affecting safety or aerodynamic objectives.

Yes, agree with much of this.

People seem blind the fact that up to the early 90s the cars were wider than 2M, there also wouldn’t be the huge weight saving some suggest by ditching hybrid systems, and it just isn’t going to happen. I agree the 2022 regs missed a trick in not mandating a reduction in wheelbase, as you say 30cm would have been a start. The current cars are ridiculously long still…

A wheelbase and weight reduction working group should be set up in the same way the aero group was. It is hard to see where significant weight savings would come from though. Even F2 cars weigh >700kg now.