FIA introduces £30m budget cap

[Chaparral]

Actually I agree with MrE about revenue. They team shouldn't get more...the tracks should.

Not many tracks, especially the European ones turn a profit for running a GP, that shouldn't be the case. The tracks should get more money back from FOM for hosting events - in a way it should guarantee the survival of the track for a year...without decent tracks there is no racing.

Teams should reduce their expenditure, but they don't need more revenue. MrE should lose more of his pot to the tracks that are selected to host the show.

I sort of agree Axle - in essence the teams dont need more of the revenue - 50% is pretty damm good in the entertainment industry and I speak from long experience and a scale down over time of expenditure is a solid route to take (under one set of regs). The only reason Ecclestone is 'considering' the promoters (and most are governments now) is he sees the writing on the wall - this economic climate could sink him if he keeps persuing the exhorbitant fees he does - people/governments will not continue to pay them - its all venues that are suffering - we here in Australia well the last GP cost the Victorian government $60 million in cold hard cash (yes its offset by global exposure and tourism draws but the Australian tourism operation only spent $50 million on a advertising campaign in international markets - Victoria spent $60 million from a state budget - doesnt make sense). Ecclestone will NEVER reduce his/CVC's take - they have an annual interest payment on the 2.7 billion loan to pay or 270 million on the never never - the loan in essence will never be paid off in his or a few others lifetime.......sad but true - and operations like CVC generally try to offer the greatest return on investment to their shareholders usually over a 5 year period then on sell the asset - so will be interesting to see if there are any willing buyers out there - I dont think so

[vall]

on slightly different issue. Anyone concerned about possible safety issues with the capped teams regs? P. Sauber says movable rare wings is insane:

http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/3035 ... Is_Insane/

with all these more powerful engines and KESR, movable elements, etc. it may get pretty damn dangerous, no? I understand that it is a dangerous sport and we enjoy the speed these cars can do, but still, safety is quite important, isn't?

[Scania]

is it count the prices of develop KERS & engine?
buy must be cheaper than make by self

[xpensive]

For Chap: The insanity of it all is that the promoter takes 50% of sheer profiteering which goes to pay interest on another insane 2.7 Billion USD loan, which partly ended up in a Croatian gold-digger's private pocket.

Why the manufacturers keep feeding this system is completely beyond my logical understanding, guess the hospitality suites are satisfactory to everyone's personal taste?

[Chaparral]

For Chap: The insanity of it all is that the promoter takes 50% of sheer profiteering which goes to pay interest on another insane 2.7 Billion USD loan, which partly ended up in a Croatian gold-digger's private pocket.

Why the manufacturers keep feeding this system is completely beyond my logical understanding, guess the hospitality suites are satisfactory to everyone's personal taste?

Yeah its pretty insane mate isnt it freekin good business to be in from Ecclestones point of view I just really hope FOTA hold firm and come up with the correct conclusion and drive to pull the pin or worst case scenario put Mosley and Ecclestone back in their box and run it their way - this is their real opportunity (and only opportunity)

[WhiteBlue]

This moaning about a two tier system is missing the point. With the published rules any of the competent big teams making the cap will easily win hands down. And how likely is it that the shark pool will not bite?

Red Bull will definetly go budget capped and have a good design to start with. They will make Newey a partner and pay him dividends. They cannot fail to win 2010. BMW will immediately realise that and will go for the budget cap as well. McMerc will be very quick to do the same simply to escape the union problem they have at the moment.

In the end Montezemolo is left with Renault and Toyota as possible allies. The three will never be able to keep the lid on FOTA in order to organise the boycott. We have had this time and again. Teams cannot agree on fundamental issues that affect the competitiveness.

This two tier system is simply a shield to defend against a legal battle with Ferrari. Ferrari have signed the 2012 Concord and have been given the usual veto rights. The FIA can argue in court that they have not changed the rules applicable to Ferrari. But with the competitive advantages to the budget capped teams the real alternative is simply go capped or get lost. No team can expect to win with a non capped formula.

I think that Bernie and Max have thought this through and they are very likely to pull it off. None of the automotives will commit to a five year contract. They have not done it in the past and they will not do it now. So Bernie can reduce the money he pays to those teams which have not signed, go softer on race promoters and pay additional teams. I do not see how they can loose this power play.

The signatories to the concord are Ferrari, Williams, Red Bull, Toro Rosso and perhaps Force India. Ferrari will be alone from this group if they try a boycott.

[Conceptual]

Isn't Mosely done after 2009?

[Metar]

Renault will either cap themselves, or pull out... They've stated before that they can't run the current sums of money.

[Conceptual]

This moaning about a two tier system is missing the point. With the published rules any of the competent big teams making the cap will easily win hands down. And how likely is it that the shark pool will not bite?

Red Bull will definetly go budget capped and have a good design to start with. They will make Newey a partner and pay him dividends. They cannot fail to win 2010. BMW will immediately realise that and will go for the budget cap as well. McMerc will be very quick to do the same simply to escape the union problem they have at the moment.

In the end Montezemolo is left with Renault and Toyota as possible allies. The three will never be able to keep the lid on FOTA in order to organise the boycott. We have had this time and again. Teams cannot agree on fundamental issues that affect the competitiveness.

This two tier system is simply a shield to defend against a legal battle with Ferrari. Ferrari have signed the 2012 Concord and have been given the usual veto rights. The FIA can argue in court that they have not changed the rules applicable to Ferrari. But with the competitive advantages to the budget capped teams the real alternative is simply go capped or get lost. No team can expect to win with a non capped formula.

I think that Bernie and Max have thought this through and they are very likely to pull it off. None of the automotives will commit to a five year contract. They have not done it in the past and they will not do it now. So Bernie can reduce the money he pays to those teams which have not signed, go softer on race promoters and pay additional teams. I do not see how they can loose this power play.

The signatories to the concord are Ferrari, Williams, Red Bull, Toro Rosso and perhaps Force India. Ferrari will be alone from this group if they try a boycott.

I wonder how the distinction between RBR and RBT will be affected by the cap? Technically, RBT is a separate entity to the RBR race team that competes in F1, so Newey's salary, and everyone at RBT shouldn't really count towards the $40M cap.

This is where it is gonna get pretty dicey!

[Chaparral]

Metar - Renault will either cap themselves, or pull out... They've stated before that they can't run the current sums of money.

Metar - cap themselves is usually termed as one who commits suicide where Im from - so Flabby will eat the bullet - maybe

WB -In the end Montezemolo is left with Renault and Toyota as possible allies. The three will never be able to keep the lid on FOTA in order to organise the boycott. We have had this time and again. Teams cannot agree on fundamental issues that affect the competitiveness.

Totally wrong as usual and speculative - Mozarella has Williams, Mclaren on board along with themselves and probably Force India so theres three majors (or arent you monitoring the situation) watch the others fall into line.

WB - In the end Montezemolo is left with Renault and Toyota as possible allies. The three will never be able to keep the lid on FOTA in order to organise the boycott. We have had this time and again.

No we havent its been on two prior occasions - this is the first real shot at a control of the business and I believe its there best shot - and I hope to hell they take it.......

WB - Ferrari have signed the 2012 Concord and have been given the usual veto rights

They havent signed any bloody Concorde agreement it hasnt been in place since 2007 and the extension if you like was only to 2010.

The signatories to the concord are Ferrari, Williams, Red Bull, Toro Rosso and perhaps Force India. Ferrari will be alone from this group if they try a boycott.

God only knows why I tune into forums - night (its 11.30pm here) hope your days a good one

[kensaundm31]

Couldn't Ferrari, Mclaren and Toyota create 1 team capped and 1 team uncapped?

The uncapped team would naturally be the 'A' team because of all the extra goodies. They could do all the r&d on the uncapped team and all the testing on the capped team.

[paused]

Does this end the rimshields for 2010?

Doubt it. If teams can argue a hole is not a hole, then surely they can argue that a rim shield is not a heat retaining device as directly related to the tyre. They are located a longway from the contact patch and to say they act to retain heat is a pretty long bow.

Well, it could be argued that it does the same thing as "baking" the rims... And if you can give an example of a "heat retaining device" that this may apply to, I would be much appreciative!

How about a few hair dryers strapped to the wishbones

[WhiteBlue]

It is well known that the teams I mentioned have signed up to a concord agreement to run from 2008-2012 when the FIA vs GPMA war was raging in 2005. There are countless publications about the fact. The rest of the teams never signed up because their parent companies did not want to commit for a longer time.

That agreement may be called something else but it was done in the spirit of the concord agreement and it has legal consequences as we know. Williams used it to stop Prodrive from entering in 2008 and it also is the leverage that forced Mateschitz to abandon the common chassis design between RBR und STR next year.

I believe that Max and Bernie have picked a good time to pull this off because Ferrari will not get backed by any major TV market as they were some years ago. This time it will be only the Italians. Some years ago we would have had rioting in Germany if Mosley had ousted Ferrari. Now with Vettel, Hamilton, Button and Alonso pulling the crowds Ferrari have no bigger TV and ticket market on their side. If Bernie gets a little less money from Italie, Brazil and Finland he will not loose a lot of sleep over it.

[gcdugas]

How can the FIA get away with this time and again? What authority do they have to unilaterally write technical regs? Is the TWG just a quaint body to be ignored when ever Max gets in a sour mood?

Max and the FIA have a vote on the TWG and can implement some changes if there is a legitimate safety concern but that is it. BTW, there is no way that cold tires are NOT a safety concern so the hypocrisy of the FIA is blatant yet again.

The FOTA needs to run their candidate for FIA president and be rid of Max. Short of that, they need to openly challenge his authority under the agreements the same way they defeated the "wins system of WDC determination"... by citing that the FIA was in violation of written agreements. There is no way Max has the authority to do any of this, so why are the teams not challenging his goofy two tiered, no refueling, no tire warmers, increased weight, different revs ideas?

As I recall, the FOTA has published their budget cut ideas and it was ignored. The FOTA has published their revised points system ideas and it was ignored. So the FOTA now needs to get political and defeat Max in the election or revive the GPMA schism and carry through with it.

[WhiteBlue]

The WMSC is the highest authority with regard to rule making. They can decide whatever they want as long as they stay inside the contractual limits they have committed to.

I would love to see someone else run for FIA president. The only problem is who would we have to balance the power of Bernie when Max is gone? Bernie alone with a Rookie in the FIA driver seat would be desaster.