Red Bull RB17

[Morteza]

So this is going to be track-only, designed by Newey and powered by a hybrid twin-turbo V8.

[chrisc90]

I see a RB17 vs valkyrie race coming on.

Should be interesting to see what they come up with. I dare bet this will be pushing technology that could be used in F1 one day.

[Just_a_fan]

I would expect that it's just a cynical, clever way for Red Bull to get around the resource limitations now applied to F1. Design a "not F1" car that uses the same aero philosophy as F1 and, hey presto, you have a test bed that you do as much design and test work on as you like, all outside of the control of the FIA.

I'll be surprised if one of the teams doesn't complain to the FIA, even if nothing is said publicly.

I'll also be surprised if another team doesn't announce a similar project in order to circumvent the rules. Unlike Red Bull, many of the teams are owned by / linked to car manufacturers so have an even better smoke screen to hide behind.

[mclaren111]

I would expect that it's just a cynical, clever way for Red Bull to get around the resource limitations now applied to F1. Design a "not F1" car that uses the same aero philosophy as F1 and, hey presto, you have a test bed that you do as much design and test work on as you like, all outside of the control of the FIA.

I'll be surprised if one of the teams doesn't complain to the FIA, even if nothing is said publicly.

I'll also be surprised if another team doesn't announce a similar project in order to circumvent the rules. Unlike Red Bull, many of the teams are owned by / linked to car manufacturers so have an even better smoke screen to hide behind.

Good opportunity for McLaren to follow suit and catch up...

[Just_a_fan]

I would expect that it's just a cynical, clever way for Red Bull to get around the resource limitations now applied to F1. Design a "not F1" car that uses the same aero philosophy as F1 and, hey presto, you have a test bed that you do as much design and test work on as you like, all outside of the control of the FIA.

I'll be surprised if one of the teams doesn't complain to the FIA, even if nothing is said publicly.

I'll also be surprised if another team doesn't announce a similar project in order to circumvent the rules. Unlike Red Bull, many of the teams are owned by / linked to car manufacturers so have an even better smoke screen to hide behind.

Good opportunity for McLaren to follow suit and catch up...

Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes, AM...basically everyone other than TR and Williams has a link to road cars however tenuous some might be.

Heck, you don't even need to sell a car - just have a project to investigate one. Just because your TD and a few others are working on the project doesn't mean you're avoiding the restrictions, does it?

[Sieper]

You’ve made your point. Like you quickly realized others are better positioned were it to be a smoke screen and building a road car whilst making a profit is financially challenging and will always be the first concern for any endeavor. Newey has always had a genuine interest in building race cars and his projects have materialized.

Now talk about the RB17 please.

[Just_a_fan]

You’ve made your point. Like you quickly realized others are better positioned were it to be a smoke screen and building a road car whilst making a profit is financially challenging and will always be the first concern for any endeavor. Newey has always had a genuine interest in building race cars and his projects have materialized.

Now talk about the RB17 please.

Red Bull don't make cars so they don't necessarily need to make a profit from cars unlike, say, Ferrari who do because it's their core business. Red Bull Racing is a marketing exercise to sell the idea of a drink giving you performance - "Red Bull gives you wings".

Red Bull have always been very clever and if the RB17 is a clever way to spend money in F1 then so be it. It's for the FIA to police the cost cap and if they can'tthen the cost cap is worthless. Someone was always going to find a way around the cap, it just looks like Red Bull are the first to do so. I have no doubt the Valkyrie Pro was also used to circumvent the cost cap. It will be impossible for anyone to prove unless it's leaked by an employee, so they might well have committed the "perfect crime".

Once we see a real RB17, we can discuss it. Until then, it's just vapourware and open to debate on many levels including the rationale behind it.

[organic]

Horner even says RB building this car will "complement" their formula 1 work. Not exactly trying to hide it are they

[etusch]

I would expect that it's just a cynical, clever way for Red Bull to get around the resource limitations now applied to F1. Design a "not F1" car that uses the same aero philosophy as F1 and, hey presto, you have a test bed that you do as much design and test work on as you like, all outside of the control of the FIA.

I'll be surprised if one of the teams doesn't complain to the FIA, even if nothing is said publicly.

I'll also be surprised if another team doesn't announce a similar project in order to circumvent the rules. Unlike Red Bull, many of the teams are owned by / linked to car manufacturers so have an even better smoke screen to hide behind.

Is it turned from tech from F1 to road cars to from road cars to F1 ? I think you are reading too much.
There is a word I like very much said by Architecture Sinan who is architect of most famous mosques in İstanbul. "I inspected every building I run accross even if they are wreck and I lernt many thing from them"
So one can learn from everyting. But making a road car to learn something about aero of F1 car... Redbull? Newey? I don't think so.

[Sieper]

But it is a true quote. This is how inspiration works for me too. I look at things, I see, recognize choices made and it helps me to form my own ideas. What helps me even more is setting artificial boundaries, so that you need to get creative to find a solution within that framework. I guess F1 rules would be ideal for me too. Building a racecar also comes with a set of confines.

[Just_a_fan]

I would expect that it's just a cynical, clever way for Red Bull to get around the resource limitations now applied to F1. Design a "not F1" car that uses the same aero philosophy as F1 and, hey presto, you have a test bed that you do as much design and test work on as you like, all outside of the control of the FIA.

I'll be surprised if one of the teams doesn't complain to the FIA, even if nothing is said publicly.

I'll also be surprised if another team doesn't announce a similar project in order to circumvent the rules. Unlike Red Bull, many of the teams are owned by / linked to car manufacturers so have an even better smoke screen to hide behind.

Is it turned from tech from F1 to road cars to from road cars to F1 ? I think you are reading too much.
There is a word I like very much said by Architecture Sinan who is architect of most famous mosques in İstanbul. "I inspected every building I run accross even if they are wreck and I lernt many thing from them"
So one can learn from everyting. But making a road car to learn something about aero of F1 car... Redbull? Nepwey? I don't think so.

It's a track special, not a road car. And, as they themselves say - it will complement their F1 work. That tells us that they will use it to learn things to help their F1 campaign. That is doing what I mentioned previously- using it to get around the resource cap.

I think they're doing this to try to force the cap to be changed. Horner has stated a number of times that the cap is too restrictive. I think this project is a way to change that.

[Andi76]

I would expect that it's just a cynical, clever way for Red Bull to get around the resource limitations now applied to F1. Design a "not F1" car that uses the same aero philosophy as F1 and, hey presto, you have a test bed that you do as much design and test work on as you like, all outside of the control of the FIA.

I'll be surprised if one of the teams doesn't complain to the FIA, even if nothing is said publicly.

I'll also be surprised if another team doesn't announce a similar project in order to circumvent the rules. Unlike Red Bull, many of the teams are owned by / linked to car manufacturers so have an even better smoke screen to hide behind.

I do not think that they can use anything from this car and use it for their F1 car or use it for research for their F1 car. You cannot copy a Ferrari front wing and put it on a Mercedes F1 Car. This will not work. Its exactly the same here. And thats a "road-car", what makes it even more useless in that regard. Even if this road car uses F1 Aero philosophy, there will always be a huge difference what makes it impossible to be used for research of any worth for your F1 car. Aero of a F1 car is to complex and specific. The only way this would work is to put your F1-windtunnel-model in the windtunnel or CFD and say research was done on the "road-car". But thats not possible as the FIA has cameras in the windtunnels of the teams and access to their CFD also. So i do not think this "conspiracy-theory" has any reality in it.

The only thing that may make this project helpfull for your F1 Car is that your aerodynamicists and engineers can gain a lot of experience and training. But is this really an advantage? McLaren produced cars using "F1 Aerodynamic-Philosophy", Ferrari did the same and their engineers and aerodynamicists had the opportunity all the time for many years. Did this lift their abilities above all the other teams? No. So - i do not think that this project can really give Red Bull an advantage and this is also not the reason for this project. Especially since all the other Top-Teams can easily do the same and some of them even have done this in the past.

[Just_a_fan]

I would expect that it's just a cynical, clever way for Red Bull to get around the resource limitations now applied to F1. Design a "not F1" car that uses the same aero philosophy as F1 and, hey presto, you have a test bed that you do as much design and test work on as you like, all outside of the control of the FIA.

I'll be surprised if one of the teams doesn't complain to the FIA, even if nothing is said publicly.

I'll also be surprised if another team doesn't announce a similar project in order to circumvent the rules. Unlike Red Bull, many of the teams are owned by / linked to car manufacturers so have an even better smoke screen to hide behind.

I do not think that they can use anything from this car and use it for their F1 car or use it for research for their F1 car. You cannot copy a Ferrari front wing and put it on a Mercedes F1 Car. This will not work. Its exactly the same here. And thats a "road-car", what makes it even more useless in that regard. Even if this road car uses F1 Aero philosophy, there will always be a huge difference what makes it impossible to be used for research of any worth for your F1 car. Aero of a F1 car is to complex and specific. The only way this would work is to put your F1-windtunnel-model in the windtunnel or CFD and say research was done on the "road-car". But thats not possible as the FIA has cameras in the windtunnels of the teams and access to their CFD also. So i do not think this "conspiracy-theory" has any reality in it.

The only thing that may make this project helpfull for your F1 Car is that your aerodynamicists and engineers can gain a lot of experience and training. But is this really an advantage? McLaren produced cars using "F1 Aerodynamic-Philosophy", Ferrari did the same and their engineers and aerodynamicists had the opportunity all the time for many years. Did this lift their abilities above all the other teams? No. So - i do not think that this project can really give Red Bull an advantage and this is also not the reason for this project. Especially since all the other Top-Teams can easily do the same and some of them even have done this in the past.

It's not a road car. It's a track car, designed exclusively to be driven on race tracks.

The team have said it will complement their Formula One work. That's as close as it's possible to say "we will use this to help the race team" as you can get without actually saying it.

No one else has done this before because they didn't need to - there were no F1 resource restrictions in place and so this type of approach wasn't necessary. McLaren and Ferrari F1-linked road cars were just using the glamour of F1 as marketing. This new Red Bull project isn't doing that - it's cleverly getting around resource restrictions that the team don't agree with.

[Andi76]

I would expect that it's just a cynical, clever way for Red Bull to get around the resource limitations now applied to F1. Design a "not F1" car that uses the same aero philosophy as F1 and, hey presto, you have a test bed that you do as much design and test work on as you like, all outside of the control of the FIA.

I'll be surprised if one of the teams doesn't complain to the FIA, even if nothing is said publicly.

I'll also be surprised if another team doesn't announce a similar project in order to circumvent the rules. Unlike Red Bull, many of the teams are owned by / linked to car manufacturers so have an even better smoke screen to hide behind.

I do not think that they can use anything from this car and use it for their F1 car or use it for research for their F1 car. You cannot copy a Ferrari front wing and put it on a Mercedes F1 Car. This will not work. Its exactly the same here. And thats a "road-car", what makes it even more useless in that regard. Even if this road car uses F1 Aero philosophy, there will always be a huge difference what makes it impossible to be used for research of any worth for your F1 car. Aero of a F1 car is to complex and specific. The only way this would work is to put your F1-windtunnel-model in the windtunnel or CFD and say research was done on the "road-car". But thats not possible as the FIA has cameras in the windtunnels of the teams and access to their CFD also. So i do not think this "conspiracy-theory" has any reality in it.

The only thing that may make this project helpfull for your F1 Car is that your aerodynamicists and engineers can gain a lot of experience and training. But is this really an advantage? McLaren produced cars using "F1 Aerodynamic-Philosophy", Ferrari did the same and their engineers and aerodynamicists had the opportunity all the time for many years. Did this lift their abilities above all the other teams? No. So - i do not think that this project can really give Red Bull an advantage and this is also not the reason for this project. Especially since all the other Top-Teams can easily do the same and some of them even have done this in the past.

It's not a road car. It's a track car, designed exclusively to be driven on race tracks.

The team have said it will complement their Formula One work. That's as close as it's possible to say "we will use this to help the race team" as you can get without actually saying it.

No one else has done this before because they didn't need to - there were no F1 resource restrictions in place and so this type of approach wasn't necessary. McLaren and Ferrari F1-linked road cars were just using the glamour of F1 as marketing. This new Red Bull project isn't doing that - it's cleverly getting around resource restrictions that the team don't agree with.

I just called it "road-car" as its more a conventional car than a F1-Car. And its not true no one did this before. Rory Byrne worked on a Ferrari car with a "F1-Aero-Philosophy". So Ferrari has done this before. But anyway - nothing of this matters - you cannot carry over Aerodynamics or other research from a road or a track car or however you want to call it, to your F1 car. Also not the mechanical components as the loads and g-forces are totally different. So sorry - but thats just rubbish.

[Just_a_fan]

But anyway - nothing of this matters - you cannot carry over Aerodynamics or other research from a road or a track car or however you want to call it, to your F1 car. Also not the mechanical components as the loads and g-forces are totally different. So sorry - but thats just rubbish.

If you say so. You'd better tell the team that too - they have said it will complement their F1 car work. You'd best inform Newey that he's wasting his time after all.