2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
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continuum16
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Joined: 30 Nov 2015, 17:35
Location: Kansas

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Shal_Leg16 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 18:54
codetower wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 17:00
Shal_Leg16 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 15:27
...
...
im not baiming Sainz for his desire to win either , but still that last 10 laps left a bad taste in my mouth.

for me fact is... Ferrari handed him a unfair advantage and sainz ran away with it leaving Charles hanging..it was like fu*k you guys im going for it.

i get your point about his 1st win , but i feel this is not just one singular incident there are many hints so far that ... every time Ferrari builts a strategy involving both....sainz always tries to maneuver it to his sole benifit even if that screws leclerc he doesnt care. fine lets just throw all fairness and teamplayer stuff in dustbin im all ok with that, im not that naive , i perfectly understand cruality of the sport ..for every Rubins there is a Schumacher ..but then ffs you have to be Schumacher, you can't be rubins and always expect favorable strategy . fact is you cant beat leclerc even with his car brocken but you expect or least try to maneuver every strategical step to benifit only your average a$$. Add to that the lack of balls shown by Ferrari and all this results in mess. imagine them recing for Redbull last sunday and we all know within a lap or 2 there would have been " you are on different strategy " message. There was no chance in hell that in similar SC situation RB would pit perez for fresh tyres and leave Max on old rubber..no chance in hell.

at Ferrari with all this mess its not gonna work for long, They can't let the rubins of the team dectate the strategy and screw everything else ...if so in the end neither Ferrari will win anything nor will Leclerc ...and sainz we all know his realistic target so he may come out as the only winner here.
Ferrari has dug itself into a hole on two fronts:

First, they have vehemently defended their tactics, even though it should be obvious that they made a mistake. Admit it. Don't pretend that you didn't make a mistake. If they double-stacked they would have probably emerged from the pits 1-3 instead of 1-2 because Hamilton was close. Given that Mercedes struggles to get the Pirellis up to temperature and their lack of a top speed advantage, the risk of being overtaken by Lewis is low and the chance of overtaking him is fairly high. Admit it and move on. That is one area where Mercedes is usually admirable; when they screw up, they say so.

Second, and more importantly, is the fact that the consequences of their strategic blunder is that Sainz is now very close to Leclerc on points. This will reduce the chances of good decision making even further. You talk about Rubens and Schumacher. The difference is that Rubens and Schumacher had a contractually obligated arrangement. Sainz and Leclerc do not, and whether that is a mistake by Ferrari or not can be debated at another time.

It has been obvious since the Vettel era (and before, although I use Vettel because it is probably a majority of the same personnel) that the team does not have confidence in its strategy. The difference between Sainz and Leclerc is that Sainz often debates the strategy proactively, while Leclerc usually only questions it reactively. It is not too dissimilar to Monaco, where they would have finished 3-4 if Sainz listened to the strategy calls to pit for inters. With regards to team orders, Sainz did what Ferrari told him to (yield to LEC if you can't hit the target time) but drew the line at common sense (backing up on the SC restart).

The issue was/is not that Sainz somehow manipulates this to his benefit, it's that the team allows the strategy to be a two-way communication. If you give him the option to bargain, he would be an idiot not to try. They need a James Vowels-type (is it Laurent Mekies [who was out with COVID I think, which doesn't help], who is it, if anyone?), someone with higher authority on strategy than Xavier and Adami, but not Binotto, to come over the top and say "this is what we are doing, do it now and shut up" if the engineers aren't going to be firm.
"You can't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
- Mark Twain

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codetower
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Joined: 15 Sep 2020, 16:47

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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CMSMJ1 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 17:54
codetower wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 17:32
CMSMJ1 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 17:20
avoiding the obvious bias in the last couple of posts... get off the fence guys :D

Do you guys really think Charles could have hung onto that and won it? I doubt it. Ferrari finally made the right call and gave Carlos the chance he needed (and deserved)

Charles is a phenomenal driver - probably outperforming the grid at the moment but don't be blinkered. He could not have held off the Merc and Redbull and I suspect a 1-4 was a decent result for the team. A win is a win, right?
Do you mean Leclerc holding on with his current tyres (old hards), or on a fresh set of softs? I think on softs he absolutely would have held off. Keep in mind, the RB would have had to pass not only the other Ferrari (also on softs if they would have double stacked) but Hamilton who had good pace as well.

The way I see it is that two possible scenarios if Ferrari double stack. Hamilton stay out on hards, in the lead, at restart with 2 Ferraris (LEC-1 SAI-2) and a RB on softs chasing him. HAM ends up 4th like Leclerc. Maybe Perez passes Carlos, but don't think he'd catch Charles after battling Hamilton and Carlos.

2nd scenario, they all pit for softs, HAM possibly leapfrogs Carlos because of the double stack, but they all end up in the same positions. LEC, HAM/SAI, PER.
They failed to pit him for softs - so I was talking about the actual rather than the 'what if'

If he made the stop and was on equivalent tyres - I reckon Charles would have won it.
Ah, well I agree 100%. I don't believe he would have held them back. I think holding Carlos back to that 10 car distance was unrealistic. That would have just delayed the inevitable, and might have even sacrificed the win. But again, another questionable call. And I say questionable because it's easy to sit here and be the Monday morning race director, no one knows the outcome under a different scenario. What if they double stack like many suggest (including myself) and they have a slow pitstop. we are here saying what a dumb call it was when Charles had the lead and his tyres could have made it to the end.

At the end of the day, the call was made, Carlos got his first win, Ferrari got the P1. not a bad day. I am genuinely happy for Carlos. He's got the win finally after what, 7 years? Just a little upset that yet another win escapes Charles out of no fault of his own. I felt he genuinely could have won the championship this year.

But it's in the past. On to Austria!

JPower
JPower
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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f1316 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 19:24

So in short “Red Bull as quick as ever” - I mean, yeah, they’re always there but it’s really hard to know which car is actually faster at the moment. Ferrari still seem to have a small quali advantage (albeit, I personally think that’s as much Charles just being Senna-esque in quali) and for all the above reasons the race pace post upgrades is super unclear.

Fwiw I think Austria, despite the top speed component and prevailing narrative about RB on fast tracks, will play to Ferrari’s strengths in traction - a bit like Canada.
Yeah, good point. Just going by past history of their relative overperformance at this track, it just seems that they'll want to really put their stamp on the weekend.

We'll see.

JPower
JPower
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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ferkan wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 18:52

No, you are not talking facts and F1 Team Mate comparison does not have correct numbers.
So the data coming out of ERGAST is incorrect?

OK, I'm done here.

mika vs michael
mika vs michael
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Joined: 27 Jan 2007, 01:35

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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pipoloko wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 16:34
Binotto this morning to an Italian journalist
Per noi la priorità continua a essere massimizzare il risultato di squadra.
to us (ferrari team) the priority is to maximize the team result
capice mate?
It was not that way in 1999-2004, the most successful era of Ferrari history. Back then the team interest was to win the WDC and they put all eggs in one basket...the one that counted most...
"It is necessary to relax your muscles when you can. Relaxing your brain is fatal." Stirling Moss

I tried this and I had understeer, I tried that and I had oversteer, at the end of the corner I just run out of talent

f1316
f1316
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Yeah and it’s not even accurate

- I first don’t buy that there wasn’t time to double stack. There’s enough room with the delta (Ie Sainz goes a little slower than Charles within what’s allowed) and the existing gap Leclerc had to Sainz at the time (which I believe was about 4 secs at high speed, longer at slow) for a 3 sec stop to be achieved
- even if we say that a double stack means either a 2-3 (if Hamilton stays out on old hards) or a 1-3 (if Hamilton also puts bit Sainz gets jumped because of stacking), it’s almost certain that a better team result would have arisen than a 1-4 at the flag.

So team result doesn’t make sense and I agree that justifying the calls is not really the right approach. Funnily enough, they even have a fairly recent example at the same track to draw on: in 2018 Ferrari did pit under the SC and Bottas got track position by not pitting. Seb still won the race with a car that was harder to follow than the current ones.

So it’s all non-sensical to try and justify what was undoubtedly an error. Errors are ok as long as you learn from them - not accepting that an error was made means you won’t learn.

bagajohny
bagajohny
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower
JPower
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Joined: 23 Feb 2021, 05:06

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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mika vs michael wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 20:44
pipoloko wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 16:34
Binotto this morning to an Italian journalist
Per noi la priorità continua a essere massimizzare il risultato di squadra.
to us (ferrari team) the priority is to maximize the team result
capice mate?
It was not that way in 1999-2004, the most successful era of Ferrari history. Back then the team interest was to win the WDC and they put all eggs in one basket...the one that counted most...
OK.

It also wasn't that way in 2010-2013.

Don't really see any parallels between that era and this one besides F1, Rory Byrne, Binotto, and the name on the car/building.

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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I have to say sadly that I think Ferrari's shot at this year is done and gone now.
They could easily be up there or leading the tables by now, but we cannot expect RBR to keep having mechanicals, and Mercedes look to be well on the road to a come back.

I was expecting that with two of the best drivers, and what I was expecting to be bullet proof mechanicals, by this point there would be enough points in the bank to stay up the table with little effort or luck. Unfortunaly it looks like another 'development year' .
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Shal_Leg16
Shal_Leg16
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Joined: 25 Mar 2022, 16:20
Location: India

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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continuum16 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 19:49
Shal_Leg16 wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 18:54
codetower wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 17:00

...
im not baiming Sainz for his desire to win either , but still that last 10 laps left a bad taste in my mouth.

for me fact is... Ferrari handed him a unfair advantage and sainz ran away with it leaving Charles hanging..it was like fu*k you guys im going for it.

i get your point about his 1st win , but i feel this is not just one singular incident there are many hints so far that ... every time Ferrari builts a strategy involving both....sainz always tries to maneuver it to his sole benifit even if that screws leclerc he doesnt care. fine lets just throw all fairness and teamplayer stuff in dustbin im all ok with that, im not that naive , i perfectly understand cruality of the sport ..for every Rubins there is a Schumacher ..but then ffs you have to be Schumacher, you can't be rubins and always expect favorable strategy . fact is you cant beat leclerc even with his car brocken but you expect or least try to maneuver every strategical step to benifit only your average a$$. Add to that the lack of balls shown by Ferrari and all this results in mess. imagine them recing for Redbull last sunday and we all know within a lap or 2 there would have been " you are on different strategy " message. There was no chance in hell that in similar SC situation RB would pit perez for fresh tyres and leave Max on old rubber..no chance in hell.

at Ferrari with all this mess its not gonna work for long, They can't let the rubins of the team dectate the strategy and screw everything else ...if so in the end neither Ferrari will win anything nor will Leclerc ...and sainz we all know his realistic target so he may come out as the only winner here.
Ferrari has dug itself into a hole on two fronts:

First, they have vehemently defended their tactics, even though it should be obvious that they made a mistake. Admit it. Don't pretend that you didn't make a mistake. If they double-stacked they would have probably emerged from the pits 1-3 instead of 1-2 because Hamilton was close. Given that Mercedes struggles to get the Pirellis up to temperature and their lack of a top speed advantage, the risk of being overtaken by Lewis is low and the chance of overtaking him is fairly high. Admit it and move on. That is one area where Mercedes is usually admirable; when they screw up, they say so.

Second, and more importantly, is the fact that the consequences of their strategic blunder is that Sainz is now very close to Leclerc on points. This will reduce the chances of good decision making even further. You talk about Rubens and Schumacher. The difference is that Rubens and Schumacher had a contractually obligated arrangement. Sainz and Leclerc do not, and whether that is a mistake by Ferrari or not can be debated at another time.

It has been obvious since the Vettel era (and before, although I use Vettel because it is probably a majority of the same personnel) that the team does not have confidence in its strategy. The difference between Sainz and Leclerc is that Sainz often debates the strategy proactively, while Leclerc usually only questions it reactively. It is not too dissimilar to Monaco, where they would have finished 3-4 if Sainz listened to the strategy calls to pit for inters. With regards to team orders, Sainz did what Ferrari told him to (yield to LEC if you can't hit the target time) but drew the line at common sense (backing up on the SC restart).

The issue was/is not that Sainz somehow manipulates this to his benefit, it's that the team allows the strategy to be a two-way communication. If you give him the option to bargain, he would be an idiot not to try. They need a James Vowels-type (is it Laurent Mekies [who was out with COVID I think, which doesn't help], who is it, if anyone?), someone with higher authority on strategy than Xavier and Adami, but not Binotto, to come over the top and say "this is what we are doing, do it now and shut up" if the engineers aren't going to be firm.
the reason i bought in Rubens & Schumacher was with respect to Talent. whether its contractual or not F1 by default works this way only....if tomorrow Sainz indeed prooves he is better then for me Sainz has urned the right to preferential strategy.

again i agree that Sainz on his part will always try to bargain for his benefit, thats human but ....for me you also have to earn it. simple fact is at the end of the day " ONLY ONE CAN WIN RACE " we cant have two winners and the one who is better should have bigger claim.

The problem is as you righty said Ferrari gives him options. Allows him to bargain a better hand even if he doesn't deserve it.

Simple question will clear all this mess - would RB or Mercedes ever allow sundays mess if these 2 were driving for them? The answer is NO. There is no chance RB would even dream of pitting Perez and leaving Max on old rubber irrespective of any situation or condition.

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Amazing that people is questioning Sainz compromise with Ferrari :shock:

He's proved to be a team player repeatedly, last time in this same race when he was asked to match a target time or let Charles through, what he did

But being a team player does not exclude using your brain, he told the team that call to leave 10 cars space with Lecrerc would only work for maximizing their rivals chances, and the team did agree, thankfully or Ferrari could have lost the victory

Reality is very different to that scenario some are assuming of Sainz ignoring team priorities for his own benefit #-o

ferkan
ferkan
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Joined: 06 Apr 2015, 20:50

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 20:11
ferkan wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 18:52

No, you are not talking facts and F1 Team Mate comparison does not have correct numbers.
So the data coming out of ERGAST is incorrect?

OK, I'm done here.
That is not what I said at all. Qualifying shows Sainz having 7 tenths advantage in Imola, where he crashed in Q2 and Leclerc didn't need 2nd run to get into Q3 (while he was faster in every single session). It makes numbers closer, yet it makes 0 sense at all.

Race data shows huge gap anyway, like almost 4 tenths per lap advantage in Leclerc's case. But if you take Canada, where they ran COMPLETYLY different race duo to Leclerc starting from last spot, its "closer" then last year. But in reality, its not, that is all I am saying.

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codetower
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Mattia and Charles in Monaco according to this post.


JPower
JPower
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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ferkan wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 12:05
JPower wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 20:11
ferkan wrote:
05 Jul 2022, 18:52

No, you are not talking facts and F1 Team Mate comparison does not have correct numbers.
So the data coming out of ERGAST is incorrect?

OK, I'm done here.
That is not what I said at all. Qualifying shows Sainz having 7 tenths advantage in Imola, where he crashed in Q2 and Leclerc didn't need 2nd run to get into Q3 (while he was faster in every single session). It makes numbers closer, yet it makes 0 sense at all.

Race data shows huge gap anyway, like almost 4 tenths per lap advantage in Leclerc's case. But if you take Canada, where they ran COMPLETYLY different race duo to Leclerc starting from last spot, its "closer" then last year. But in reality, its not, that is all I am saying.
Just say you don’t know how median works.

Taking out Imola makes almost no difference as median eliminates outliers from making large impacts in the numbers.

Taking Canada out of the race pace numbers still proves my points. You don’t measure by tenths because track lengths vary. Percentage standardizes the difference. So yes, Sainz is still closer to Leclerc 10 races into 2022 than he was 10 races into 2021.

That does not mean he is faster than Leclerc, or that he’s extremely close on pace.

wickedz50
wickedz50
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Joined: 27 Aug 2013, 08:32

Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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codetower wrote:
06 Jul 2022, 12:43
Mattia and Charles in Monaco according to this post.

Very good gesture. Hope Charles and Mattia are clear now and British GP is behind. Personally I feel Charles should take things easy, it was too emotional of him and I understand the frustration, the 2022 fight with Max is not there. I hope everyone understands the reliability gremlins on the engine side. The RBR is simply competitive on every department this year. There is no shame in accepting that.
Charles good relationship with the team and supportive actions will ultimately pay back in good time.