Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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chrisc90
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Joined: 23 Feb 2022, 21:22

Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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Given the events of the British GP this weekend in one day the Halo saved 2 drivers lives. I think its pretty important that the placement of sausage kerbs and safety barriers are looked into by the FIA.

Ill start with the sausage kerbs.

The F2 race saw a car that was unable to be controlled, due to earlier contact causing a lot of damage, run along the grass and take flight after hitting a sausage kerb on the inside of a corner. This ultimately meant the car ended up hitting the halo of a car going round the corner. Had this kerb not been there, the severity of the incident would have likely been a lot less and used the side impact structure of the car to absorb the out of control car hitting it. Last year we also saw the red bull get pushed/thrown up off the sausage kerb at Monza with the Mercedes (please no discussion of blame, fault, max vs Lewis etc here). Had that kerb not been there, its likely wouldnt have meant the Halo would have needed to protect Lewis as the car wouldnt have jumped up.
Im sure there are other instances of the sausage kerbs sending cars flying into the air.

I propose/ see a solution for this by the way of removing the sausage kerb, but replacing it with a thicker white/yellow line which becomes the 'track limit'. This would mean that no part of the tyre can touch that part of the line, with persistent offenders given 1 chance not to cut/run wide/use the run off, on that part of the track. This could be easily enforced with pressure sensors in the lines of those locations meaning there would be no grey area for whether a car touched the line or not. BTCC (British touring cars) have used pressure pads in kerbs/run off areas before.
Alternatively, you could put a flappy bollard, or combine it with the pressure pads to give further visual awareness.


The safety barriers.

I think the safety fence did a great job of protecting the spectators from 8-900kg of flying F1 car today. However, the location that Zhou's car come to rest which was wedged between the barrier and the rear of the armco wasnt ideal. This could/would have made extraction of the driver by marshalls/medics a lot harder, due to the car being wedged between the two barriers. Also, had the car caught fire, it might have hampered fire fighting efforts due to the tight location. we should also note the exposed supports of the armco landed very closely/if not touching the Halo of the car.

I propose/see a solution, for moving the spectator safety fence 2-4metres further back than what the fence is currently positioned at. This would give rescue attempts much more room around the car in order for any driver extraction, fire fighting, general marshalling duties etc. It would also mean there is a smaller chance of a car clearing the safety barrier due to being further back.
I also think that the exposed steel supports of the armco could at least be covered over with something, such as a piece of armco at 90degrees to the vertical face of the barrier. This covers up any potential for cars to fall onto a thick support post and potentially puncturing car bodywork, or having chance of entering/further damaging the halo with a thick piece of H beam steel.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

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west52keep64
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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The thing about the catch fence is it's not really designed to protect the driver, it's to protect the spectators from debris. If a car has got that far, something else has failed. They need to look at how the car was even able to get on the otherside of that armco, because it shouldn't have been there. Perhaps the tyre wall should be deeper?

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chrisc90
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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Yes it’s ultimately there for spectator safety, but being that narrow you can wedge a car between 2 barriers is a little concerning.
Mess with the Bull - you get the horns.

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pob
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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The sausage kerbs are an inherently dangerous solution to track limits problems, but unfortunately it's going to need a fatality caused by one for the FIA to consider a wholesale rejection of them. We've already had lots of serious accidents directly caused by sausage kerbs, e.g. Sophia Floersch at Macau 2018:

Peroni 2019 Monza F3:


For placement of safety barriers and catch fencing, it's always a case of weighing up the risks for each particular corner.

QLDriver
QLDriver
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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Isn’t the fundamental issue that the back of the gravel trap launched the car over the barrier? As I saw it, the car barely touched the tyre wall - it became airborne because of the gravel trap. Having the debris fence spaced behind the Armco doesn’t seem as though it’s really a root cause of the incident and really it probably needs some spacing to protect the crowd from debris in the event of a high speed impact with the wall.

MattWellsyWells
MattWellsyWells
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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I suppose most safety features on a track are designed based on the cars being on the ground so when they get airborne it changes things somewhat. Sausage kerbs are ridiculous really because if a car hits them from almost any angle then the car will end up in the air. Exactly what should be avoided!

Gravel traps can also cause cars to flip or bounce but I think in most circumstances they do what they are supposed to do.

With all these things it comes down to risk management and how far is necessary to take it. For example, it would be better to have a large gap between the barrier and the catch fence in case a car ends up there like we saw. But then either the barrier needs to be closer to the track or the fence needs to be further from the track along with the grandstand and everything else. Is it worth doing that for something that is an extremely rare occurrence? Same with the Armco posts, is it worth however many miles of armco at each track for something that is extremely unlikely to happen? I'm all for making things safer but everything has to be reasonably practicable.

bosyber
bosyber
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-and ... ror-shunt/ I'll post his here too, because it also briefly touches on those sausage kerbs. Gary Anderson (solid when not about aero but safety it seems) also calls for the FIA to look at other solutions, mentioning a stricter adherence to white line is track limit as part of a solution.

mzivtins
mzivtins
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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Every year there are multiple serious injuries from sausage curbs, from cars being flung into each other and even broken backs.

The FIA's refusal to deal with them shows nothing more than incompetence. They are willingly and knowingly putting lives at risk of spectators and drivers for no justifiable reason.

As Abbie Eaton says "If it was Lewis Hamilton laying here with a broken back, I'm sure there would be an uproar"

F1 is a shambles with track limits, it is one of the many reason it is not the best racing to watch. They should follow SRO mandated track limits, you pass the white line anywhere on the track and you are warned, on the 4th time you have a drive through.

If F1 drivers are the best, they should be able to stay on track without needing a sausage curb to force them to do so.

CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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My opinion is that the 900kf car made it to the barriers when a 700kg car might not have. The energy in these cars when crashing and on a trajectory off the track means they are more likely to reach the barriers and, when they do, to hit it with more force.

Sausage kerbs are dangerous.
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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ian_s
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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without the sausage kerbs, that was a very different accident! At the least, it was possibly another Billy Monger

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ian_s
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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I dont mean I want to launch cars at every off! I play computer games for that

CMSMJ1
CMSMJ1
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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ian_s wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 10:35
without the sausage kerbs, that was a very different accident! At the least, it was possibly another Billy Monger
The cars are designed to take impacts ito these areas though? The nose designed to turn to dust and the side of the chassis has intrusion panels.

Billy's crash was a high speed rear ending of a car, rather than a sideways piercing hit wasn't it?

Wonder if the aero brakes/Nascar flaps might be a (random) option - car is spinning and air brakes deploy - it'll take some speed out of them won't it? :-s
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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Stu
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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I wonder if the FIA investigated ‘blow-overs’ when drawing the regulations up; it seems to me that the severity of the incident was increased dramatically by the ease with which Zhou’s car flipped over initially.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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CMSMJ1 wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 10:51
ian_s wrote:
08 Jul 2022, 10:35
without the sausage kerbs, that was a very different accident! At the least, it was possibly another Billy Monger
The cars are designed to take impacts ito these areas though? The nose designed to turn to dust and the side of the chassis has intrusion panels.

Billy's crash was a high speed rear ending of a car, rather than a sideways piercing hit wasn't it?

Wonder if the aero brakes/Nascar flaps might be a (random) option - car is spinning and air brakes deploy - it'll take some speed out of them won't it? :-s
Those aren’t designed as air brakes though, the panels open as a means to let air into the car to keep it on the ground to prevent airborne cars. I’m sure there’s a drag penalty and it slows slightly but that’s not the intent….

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wogx
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Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 18:48

Re: Sausage Kerbs and Safety Barriers

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Lando Norris calls on FIA to ban sausage kerbs from F1 circuits

McLaren driver Lando Norris has called on the FIA to remove sausage kerbs, a type of raised kerb placed around corners, from circuits following two big accidents in other series.
https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/34 ... 1-circuits
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