2022 French Grand Prix - Le Castellet, July 22 - 24

[langedweil]

The tension between Lewis and Max is not good for the sport. Max is either likable or not.

It's funny, but it's always with Ham around. With Fernando, Rosberg, now Max .. I see a pattern in this strange cold hearted behaviour.
But I agree, this weird polarisation isn't helping the sport in any way .. media gets wild in creating narratives, crowds go out of line.

[langedweil]

Slam dunk penalty for Russell there, they gave it to Ocon for the same thing in the same corner.

Agreed .. he had no business there.
I really don't like his attitude as well, Norris was right when he said that going to Merc made him a different lad ... and not for the better.
Pity he got 3rd and wasn't punished for his tracklimits, and once again the brittish bias sees him as the Second Coming ...

Russell is an absolute assassin behind the wheel. I quite like him. None of these guys are going to be fair minded when it comes to incidents like this. Deep inside I think he knows he was wrong to complain. But that is what makes them the beasts that they are. We just need to get this car on par with the top 2 and we will make life very difficult for the flying dutchman.

Nah, it's already some sort of entitlement act without actually much to show for so far.
About punting off others; Max is always being pointed at, however it appears to be in Merc-drivers DNA.
In this case he was not ever staying within tracklimits in his move, and with the wouldn't have been able to give space to Per as well. So, it was just another dumb divebomb .. but since he's brittish it's suddenly 'assasin' like. It's not, it's dumb, it's not brilliance. It's 'now-it's-my-time!!' entitlement.
STFU, just watch and learn this year ...
Cannot understand why this boy is head of the GPDA as well ..

[mendis]

The tension between Lewis and Max is not good for the sport. Max is either likable or not.

It's funny, but it's always with Ham around. With Fernando, Rosberg, now Max .. I see a pattern in this strange cold hearted behaviour.
But I agree, this weird polarisation isn't helping the sport in any way .. media gets wild in creating narratives, crowds go out of line.

There is less nonsense of team principals and drivers being d***s and more on track action this year which is good for the sport.

[xaero]

The tension between Lewis and Max is not good for the sport. Max is either likable or not.

It's funny, but it's always with Ham around. With Fernando, Rosberg, now Max .. I see a pattern in this strange cold hearted behaviour.
But I agree, this weird polarisation isn't helping the sport in any way .. media gets wild in creating narratives, crowds go out of line.

There is nothing funny in that. My behavior is same as your behavior

[214270]

Note that the rules (or interpretation of the rules) has changed this year. You have to leave spaces for the driver in the outside of you are not ahead. Moves like max did in Imola l to hamilton lap 1 last year are not allowed anymore. Russell let Perez no space, so Perez was perfectly entitled to keep position. Like the Mercedes pit wall told Russell.

Max took Hamilton at the start there. Hamilton then simply tried to use the outside line as if Max hadn’t passed him yet. Imho he had full right to that corner and it has no bearing on todays race. Even less as the AD opening lap. But somehow some category always need to bring up Max. Drag him by the hair into the conversation.

Last year Max' move was perfectly Ok(at least to me), hard but ok according to how things were judged then (and many years before). I don't even recall Hamilton complaining. It was just an example that came mind. However this year they judge things differently.

They’re not judging it differently, they failed to judge correctly last yr is what it is. All these ideas are not new, the Wolff email during Silverstone - the contents are the same as what’s been codified now. When VER was punished in Italy - the stewards wording is as per codified rules for overtaking (ie) VER was not ahead at the apex & was therefore at fault. Nothing here is new; Silverstone of last yr., done this yr. would put VER at fault and RUS here at this race is cut & dry. The past couple of pages there’s way too much chat about stuff not in the rules which should feature in the decision-making; it’s deliberately lacking nuance so these rules can be implemented consistently.

RUS tried a move, it doesn’t matter whether it was a controlled move, a lunge, etc. He failed to meet the overtaking requirements which would necessitate PER leaving space and consequently PER didn’t leave any, PER was not required by any rule. Had they come together in that instance it would have been RUS at fault, it’s no more complex than that. A reminder for all:

For overtaking on the inside of a corner

In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.

[morefirejules08]

Indeed, so let Russell stop about it. Max too just spent one radio message on it, and back then politicking on the radio was still allowed.

I don't hear Russel complaining anymore. Pretty sure he stopped a while ago now.

He complained I think twice and then overtook Checo at the VSC restart and has been a happy boy ever since.

He said it in the media interview too

So now we’re going to sensor what drivers can and can’t say over the radio

[RZS10]

[...]
RUS tried a move, it doesn’t matter whether it was a controlled move, a lunge, etc. He failed to meet the overtaking requirements which would necessitate PER leaving space and consequently PER didn’t leave any, PER was not required by any rule. Had they come together in that instance it would have been RUS at fault, it’s no more complex than that. A reminder for all:

For overtaking on the inside of a corner

In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.

His front tyres are alongside the other car earlier than the apex, there's no arguing this fact:


Was the move safe and controlled? Yep.

Did Russell keep the car within the limits of the track? Yes.


So Russell absolutely did fulfill the requirements.

You already write that Perez did not leave any space and that part is mostly true (he did leave some space), he turned in really early, went shallow and also forced George to go shallow and over the curb which subsequently caused some understeer (where have we seen that recently i wonder?) ...


So all of Russell's complaints over the radio and after the race were legitimate when sticking to the exact wording of the guidelines (and not "politics" as some here claim for some weird reason) but in the end it did not matter as he pipped him at the VSC restart.

Now whether the guidelines are sensible is a completely different discussion, i personally believe the move was rather late and generally believe that the race to the apex inside/outside is just silly but it is the consequence of those rules of engagement.

edit: Are people mixing up the (a lot stricter) requirements for the outside pass?

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner. The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.

[cplchanb]

The AD is just pointless to bring back up.

This scenario is no different to the one of Ocon who got a penalty for the same thing.
You still need to leave space for the car on the outside - regardless of contact or not

I thought it was very valid to bring up AD.

Max’s overtake on Lewis on the last lap of AD was perfectly fine, he didn’t dive bomb and run Lewis off the track at all. Had you mentioned Brazil - that would be more fitting

It's the first lap divebomb where he forced ham to off track to avoid a collision. No one is questioning the last lap pass

[cplchanb]

[...]
RUS tried a move, it doesn’t matter whether it was a controlled move, a lunge, etc. He failed to meet the overtaking requirements which would necessitate PER leaving space and consequently PER didn’t leave any, PER was not required by any rule. Had they come together in that instance it would have been RUS at fault, it’s no more complex than that. A reminder for all:

For overtaking on the inside of a corner

In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.

His front tyres are alongside the other car earlier than the apex, there's no arguing this fact:
https://i.imgur.com/ptXbXMW.png

Was the move safe and controlled? Yep.

Did Russell keep the car within the limits of the track? Yes.
https://i.imgur.com/zA4f2B8.png

So Russell absolutely did fulfill the requirements.

You already write that Perez did not leave any space and that part is mostly true (he did leave some space), he turned in really early, went shallow and also forced George to go shallow and over the curb which subsequently caused some understeer (where have we seen that recently i wonder?) ...
https://i.imgur.com/6WXncBb.png

So all of Russell's complaints over the radio and after the race were legitimate when sticking to the exact wording of the guidelines (and not "politics" as some here claim for some weird reason) but in the end it did not matter as he pipped him at the VSC restart.

Now whether the guidelines are sensible is a completely different discussion, i personally believe the move was rather late and generally believe that the race to the apex inside/outside is just silly but it is the consequence of those rules of engagement.

I have go disagree with this assessment. The only reason why Russell was able to make that corner is because checo aborted the turn and went wide. You can't just force another driver off the track when they've already initiated their turn in. Had checo even stayed on the outer edge of the turn contact would've been made and it would be a sainz Alonso podium.

[cplchanb]

Indeed, so let Russell stop about it. Max too just spent one radio message on it, and back then politicking on the radio was still allowed.

I don't hear Russel complaining anymore. Pretty sure he stopped a while ago now.

He complained I think twice and then overtook Checo at the VSC restart and has been a happy boy ever since.

He said it in the media interview too

Drivers are always pumped up on the radio and while they're cooling down. And rightfully so since they're doing all this at 300km/h making 5g turns. We're all calling the shots in the luxury of our sofas with countless replay opportunities and multiple angles. I'm sure once goerge sees all the video he'd realize it was a divebomb move that didn't work

[chrisc90]

I don't hear Russel complaining anymore. Pretty sure he stopped a while ago now.

He complained I think twice and then overtook Checo at the VSC restart and has been a happy boy ever since.

He said it in the media interview too

Drivers are always pumped up on the radio and while they're cooling down. And rightfully so since they're doing all this at 300km/h making 5g turns. We're all calling the shots in the luxury of our sofas with countless replay opportunities and multiple angles. I'm sure once goerge sees all the video he'd realize it was a divebomb move that didn't work

Can’t see how you can defend him there. He literally watched it in the cool down room.

[214270]

[...]
RUS tried a move, it doesn’t matter whether it was a controlled move, a lunge, etc. He failed to meet the overtaking requirements which would necessitate PER leaving space and consequently PER didn’t leave any, PER was not required by any rule. Had they come together in that instance it would have been RUS at fault, it’s no more complex than that. A reminder for all:

For overtaking on the inside of a corner

In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.

His front tyres are alongside the other car earlier than the apex, there's no arguing this fact:
https://i.imgur.com/ptXbXMW.png

Was the move safe and controlled? Yep.

Did Russell keep the car within the limits of the track? Yes.
https://i.imgur.com/zA4f2B8.png

So Russell absolutely did fulfill the requirements.

You already write that Perez did not leave any space and that part is mostly true (he did leave some space), he turned in really early, went shallow and also forced George to go shallow and over the curb which subsequently caused some understeer (where have we seen that recently i wonder?) ...
https://i.imgur.com/6WXncBb.png

So all of Russell's complaints over the radio and after the race were legitimate when sticking to the exact wording of the guidelines (and not "politics" as some here claim for some weird reason) but in the end it did not matter as he pipped him at the VSC restart.

Now whether the guidelines are sensible is a completely different discussion, i personally believe the move was rather late and generally believe that the race to the apex inside/outside is just silly but it is the consequence of those rules of engagement.

edit: Are people mixing up the (a lot stricter) requirements for the outside pass?

When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner. The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.

Alongside in this context is front wheel to front wheel. As everything with the FIA goes, it’s not written correctly. Either way, the stewards are interpreting it front-to-front.

[NL_Fer]

This is the problem. He needed the whole width of the track to make the corner and although he was significantly alongside, he wasn’t the leading driver, so he wasn’t entitled to take all this space and push Checo off. He was lucky he didn’t get a penalty.

[RZS10]

I have go disagree with this assessment. The only reason why Russell was able to make that corner is because checo aborted the turn and went wide. You can't just force another driver off the track when they've already initiated their turn in. Had checo even stayed on the outer edge of the turn contact would've been made and it would be a sainz Alonso podium.

Please read what i wrote carefully, because i think we'd even agree (i wrote that i think the move was rather late).

This is just about whether he was in the right when pedantically sticking to the wording of the guidelines and he was and it's nigh impossible to disagree with that - so it would have been up to Perez to leave enough space and then ultimately to yield - now we can both agree or disagree with whether this is fair/unfair correct or not correct but George fulfilled the requirements and it wouldn't surprise me if the next drivers' meeting will be a bit longer because of him whipping out a powerpoint presentation.

Alongside in this context is front wheel to front wheel. As everything with the FIA goes, it’s not written correctly. Either way, the stewards are interpreting it front-to-front.

[slightly edited this part]
I do not want to argue whether the move was on or not or whether he should have been penalized or not, it's just about the wording which is similar to the old one about leaving space when defending on a straight (alongside meaning having the front wing level with the rear wheels, having the front tyres alongside the other car essentially means the same and is not being completely level, that being the requirement for the outside move), and according to the that he was in the right as he was alongside, regardless of how weird that may be.

How do you know how the stewards interpret it? Afaik there's no official communication regarding that? And is it when the sunday is even or odd? hehe

[cplchanb]

He said it in the media interview too

Drivers are always pumped up on the radio and while they're cooling down. And rightfully so since they're doing all this at 300km/h making 5g turns. We're all calling the shots in the luxury of our sofas with countless replay opportunities and multiple angles. I'm sure once goerge sees all the video he'd realize it was a divebomb move that didn't work

Can’t see how you can defend him there. He literally watched it in the cool down room.

Drivers are always entitled to their opinions. My argument is that in the heat of the moment he may think he was right, especially when this was more of an on the fence type of situation. I believe that in the press conference next Thurs he will take back what he said about the incident. We armchair experts always put drivers on this pedestal that they must be perfect and their opinions is verbatim with the sporting code. Give them a break