2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

[Tvetovnato]

Strongly agree. TD will do nothing to shake the order. As for Merc being down on straightline speed, it's because of their aero concept. They have too much drag versus the downforce they manage to create. Remember back in 2019, they were kind of on a similar situation, but the thing different back then was that they had comparatively good downforce to make up for the straightline disadvantage. This time around, relatively they could be in similar DF to Drag ratio, however compared to Red Bull and Ferrari, they are far back.

Hungaroring will be bonkers for Mercedes. Their high downforce setup is lagging compared to RBR and Ferrari. I might even go further and say that they'll fight with Mclarens, especially in Qualy.

As for Ferrari, well said in previous posts, their only competition is Ferrari Engine, Strategy Department and Driver Errors.

In 2019 they had poor top speed in relation to Ferrari which was down to Ferrari cheating with the fuel flow, so it wasn’t a straight up comparison there. As soon as the TD was issued, that speed disappeared.

If the Hungary surface is somewhat smooth, I think Mercedes can be closer than last race. But so far, all predictions seem to be way off so who knows. With the rain forecast, it will likely be a crazy race anyway so let’s see.

[yamahasho]

Strongly agree. TD will do nothing to shake the order. As for Merc being down on straightline speed, it's because of their aero concept. They have too much drag versus the downforce they manage to create. Remember back in 2019, they were kind of on a similar situation, but the thing different back then was that they had comparatively good downforce to make up for the straightline disadvantage. This time around, relatively they could be in similar DF to Drag ratio, however compared to Red Bull and Ferrari, they are far back.

Hungaroring will be bonkers for Mercedes. Their high downforce setup is lagging compared to RBR and Ferrari. I might even go further and say that they'll fight with Mclarens, especially in Qualy.

As for Ferrari, well said in previous posts, their only competition is Ferrari Engine, Strategy Department and Driver Errors.

In 2019 they had poor top speed in relation to Ferrari which was down to Ferrari cheating with the fuel flow, so it wasn’t a straight up comparison there. As soon as the TD was issued, that speed disappeared.

If the Hungary surface is somewhat smooth, I think Mercedes can be closer than last race. But so far, all predictions seem to be way off so who knows. With the rain forecast, it will likely be a crazy race anyway so let’s see.

Thank you didn’t know about fuel gate. Interesting.

[yamahasho]

There was a large change in between 2021 and 2022 in terms of engines. They moved from E5 to E10 fuel which is doubling the amount of ethanol. The engines had to be changed to be efficient with the new fuel; clearly Honda did a better job at that adaptation than Mercedes

Curious how they managed that, ethanol creates a lot of cylinder wall wash, keeps them cooler, wonder if Honda is running more timing and hotter temps which could be the cause of their reliability issues in order to eek every bit out of it.

I don’t think Vest. should put it in cruise control, after spa, the cars may run different, he needs a big lead in case they lose their .5 sec a lap advantage.

You have a lot of catchup to do on 2022 engine side and you can visit a few other threads to bring yourself upto speed.

Where are you hearing this 0.5 second lap loss? Not a single authentic source has reported this, other than a few overworked fans. AMUs guys feels there would be no effect of of floor related technical directives. I think a few people are going to be disappointed in Spa.

.5 seconds is just off the top of my head it’s probably more, I recall Toto saying they have halved the gap to RB and Ferrari so I remember it being 1 second off the pace so I deducted .5, if you have actual numbers please share.

I have a lot to catch up on? Then kindly list some engine threads, if you have articles then please share.

Curious on why you think Spa rule changes would be disappointing, from what I see raising the floor and reducing the floor flex may give some performance differences, hopefully the cars would have less downforce needing more driver input which is always good.

[mendis]

Curious how they managed that, ethanol creates a lot of cylinder wall wash, keeps them cooler, wonder if Honda is running more timing and hotter temps which could be the cause of their reliability issues in order to eek every bit out of it.

I don’t think Vest. should put it in cruise control, after spa, the cars may run different, he needs a big lead in case they lose their .5 sec a lap advantage.

You have a lot of catchup to do on 2022 engine side and you can visit a few other threads to bring yourself upto speed.

Where are you hearing this 0.5 second lap loss? Not a single authentic source has reported this, other than a few overworked fans. AMUs guys feels there would be no effect of of floor related technical directives. I think a few people are going to be disappointed in Spa.

.5 seconds is just off the top of my head it’s probably more, I recall Toto saying they have halved the gap to RB and Ferrari so I remember it being 1 second off the pace so I deducted .5, if you have actual numbers please share.

I have a lot to catch up on? Then kindly list some engine threads, if you have articles then please share.

Curious on why you think Spa rule changes would be disappointing, from what I see raising the floor and reducing the floor flex may give some performance differences, hopefully the cars would have less downforce needing more driver input which is always good.

F1 is not in "Silver Bullet" era anymore where one trick is worth the dominance and hitting that pain area would pull a team back significantly. Performance of current cars is sum of all it's elements together and not one single trick. If the floor rule hits, then it hits across the grid as every floor on every car flexes to some degree. Half a second loss is too far fetched by any stretch of imagination.

The other point worth mentioning is, when FIA announces a directives that has a lead time to come to into existence, teams give it a shot in some practices and in some cases, start complying to that a race or two earlier to see how it affects the performance and to work on gaining back that performance if they see a loss. Who knows, the last GP or two, all teams or some teams might have already exercised that solution on race day!

[yamahasho]

only RB and Ferrari are complaining about the change. Hopefully it will close the gap whatever that is.

[langedweil]

only RB and Ferrari are complaining about the change. Hopefully it will close the gap whatever that is.

No, it's way more teams than that ..
I just hope it backfires.

[deadhead]

What are the chances that brand new floor Ferrari brought to France was developed with the new TD in mind and its already compliant?

[dialtone]

What are the chances that brand new floor Ferrari brought to France was developed with the new TD in mind and its already compliant?

Very high chance, otherwise it would be only for 2 races which would be quite a waste of budget and Ferrari hasn't done wasteful development so far.

[yamahasho]

What are the chances that brand new floor Ferrari brought to France was developed with the new TD in mind and its already compliant?

Possibly but RB is loudest about the rule change, I can’t think of any reason other than they were not confirming to the rules. They are master of flex.

raising the car a bit does hit every team which is fine because downforce is what they’re trying to take away from the teams.

I’m sure the smart engineers will gain it back some other way.

Horner has said “it’s obviously a key performance factor” not sure if he was referring to the bouncing or the floor flex.

But RB is the only real team that hasn’t had real issues with bouncing. The flex floor cushions the propoising. RB also run the lowest setup. Someone mentioned 6mm of flex versus allowed 2mm. They probably designed it to flex at certain speed and others did not. Good on them but now FIA looked into it.

[GrizzleBoy]

What are the chances that brand new floor Ferrari brought to France was developed with the new TD in mind and its already compliant?

Possibly but RB is loudest about the rule change, I can’t think of any reason other than they were not confirming to the rules. They are master of flex.

raising the car a bit does hit every team which is fine because downforce is what they’re trying to take away from the teams.

I’m sure the smart engineers will gain it back some other way.

Horner has said “it’s obviously a key performance factor” not sure if he was referring to the bouncing or the floor flex.

But RB is the only real team that hasn’t had real issues with bouncing. The flex floor cushions the propoising. RB also run the lowest setup. Someone mentioned 6mm of flex versus allowed 2mm. They probably designed it to flex at certain speed and others did not. Good on them but now FIA looked into it.

Mclaren have been quite immune to it, with only Baku giving them any problems which prompted Ricciardo to comment that he finally knows what it feels like now and how bad it felt.

Even listening to their car on straights since testing you could hear their cars floor just effortlessly skipping along at high frequency with no oscillation, while others like Ferrari were like kangaroos.

[PlatinumZealot]

Dialtone's data traces show Mercedes is very good at medium speed so far. It will be close in Hungary.

If all teams choose to go max downforce - Merc will have less than Ferrari and RB. If teams choose to go medium downforce - Merc will suffer on straights. In any case, they can be close only by divine intervention. Which is actually very likely, considering how it worked out for Max this season

I'm thinking downforce setting is one thing but the speed range the wings and floor work in is important too. Mercedes should work better in the medium speed range. When you put that against the fact that Hungary is a smooth, medium speed track now, Merc should have a strong chance at fighting for the win.

[Wouter]

What are the chances that brand new floor Ferrari brought to France was developed with the new TD in mind and its already compliant?

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Possibly but RB is loudest about the rule change, I can’t think of any reason other than they were not confirming to the rules. They are master of flex.

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I don't think so! This is btw off topic. It belongs in the "All kinds of news about F1" thread/topic. Maybe a mod can move this post?
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'Ferrari is prepared to protest against FIA porpoising rules'
19:07, Today

Several Formula One teams, including Ferrari and Red Bull Racing, oppose the FIA's proposed rule changes to further combat porpoising.
The teams believe that it is not a safety issue, but that the changes are designed to help Mercedes.
Ferrari are even prepared to lodge a protest, which could make life very difficult for the FIA.

To further combat porpoising, the FIA plans to make a number of changes to the floor mandatory. For example, each team will have to raise the floor edges by 25 millimetres, the throat of the diffuser under the floor will also have to be raised and stricter tests will be introduced to check the flexing of the floor.
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Ferrari willing to appeal against FIA decision

Six of the ten teams are against the changes the FIA wants to introduce in 2023, including Ferrari. And that is an important one, because Ferrari has a right of veto with which it can block certain decisions. Whether this will be possible here remains to be seen, as the FIA claims that it is a safety issue and therefore does not need the teams' agreement in principle. However, it does open up the discussion as to what extent it is actually about safety, as the problem can already be solved by adjusting the ride height.

Ferrari would even be prepared to lodge a protest against the changes, according to Michael Schmidt in a video of Auto, Motor und Sport. Mattia Binotto would have told him this personally. The Ferrari team boss thinks that safety is not an argument, as measurements will already be taken from Spa-Francorchamps. If teams do exceed the limit, they run the risk of being disqualified. According to Binotto, more rules are not necessary for this reason.

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https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/119875/f ... rules.html

You can choose your own subtitels.

[yamahasho]

Good point Wouter, but hungaring would be the best place to introduce new bits if in fact Ferrari or RB have gotten around the flex floor tests. All conjecture at this point.

[napoleon1981]

Dialtone's data traces show Mercedes is very good at medium speed so far. It will be close in Hungary.

If all teams choose to go max downforce - Merc will have less than Ferrari and RB. If teams choose to go medium downforce - Merc will suffer on straights. In any case, they can be close only by divine intervention. Which is actually very likely, considering how it worked out for Max this season

I'm thinking downforce setting is one thing but the speed range the wings and floor work in is important too. Mercedes should work better in the medium speed range. When you put that against the fact that Hungary is a smooth, medium speed track now, Merc should have a strong chance at fighting for the win.

We already went through this a few times:
Barcelona,
No it will be Silverstone
Just kidding France it is.
Hungary of course will be a Merc win, for real now.

Even if Merc was fast in race pace, they will underperform in Qualy due to the ability to turn the tires on. We all know how difficult it is to overtake. I wouldnt be surprised to see them behind a Mclaren for a while.

[deadhead]

What are the chances that brand new floor Ferrari brought to France was developed with the new TD in mind and its already compliant?

Very high chance, otherwise it would be only for 2 races which would be quite a waste of budget and Ferrari hasn't done wasteful development so far.

Right, it will be logical thing, but I guess we won't know for sure until after Spa or the round after even.

Hungary will be a good track to see that extra DF at play.. looking forward to at least one of the days being dry so we can see what the car is capable of.