2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[Big Tea]

There have been youtube articles and papers of dozens of new designs but none seem to actually become reality. we are wasting the opportunity to test something that could ( have ) replaced the otto cycle ICE with something more efficient and have an alternative to Electric or Hydrogen, which seems to be the Hobsons choice now.

I very much doubt so. Anything ICE won't go much past 50%, in ideal circumstances.
(Also, hydrogen is pretty much vaporware. Way too wasteful and problematic to produce, handle and use.)

Its the things we have not thought of because there is no 'pigeon hole' for them that could be the very ones that could be the real key. No one is going to produce and develop something with no gain from it, this would at least give a place to try an option. Look how many years turbo was discarded. Almost everything has one now, partly due to it being developed and demonstrated in F1

[mzso]

There have been youtube articles and papers of dozens of new designs but none seem to actually become reality. we are wasting the opportunity to test something that could ( have ) replaced the otto cycle ICE with something more efficient and have an alternative to Electric or Hydrogen, which seems to be the Hobsons choice now.

I very much doubt so. Anything ICE won't go much past 50%, in ideal circumstances.
(Also, hydrogen is pretty much vaporware. Way too wasteful and problematic to produce, handle and use.)

The 2025/2026 rules are proposing using synthetic fuel. Which requires hydrogen to be produced in order to create the synthetic hydrocarbon. Though the handling and using side of the equation is easier than using straight hydrogen.

Since when? I'm quite sure the FIA boldly claimed they developed a process to make bio-fuel from unused waste. Hydrogen does not come into play.
Even if they were doing some sort of chemical synthesis, why would they need pure hydrogen? No reason that I see.

[mzso]

There have been youtube articles and papers of dozens of new designs but none seem to actually become reality. we are wasting the opportunity to test something that could ( have ) replaced the otto cycle ICE with something more efficient and have an alternative to Electric or Hydrogen, which seems to be the Hobsons choice now.

I very much doubt so. Anything ICE won't go much past 50%, in ideal circumstances.
(Also, hydrogen is pretty much vaporware. Way too wasteful and problematic to produce, handle and use.)

Its the things we have not thought of because there is no 'pigeon hole' for them that could be the very ones that could be the real key. No one is going to produce and develop something with no gain from it, this would at least give a place to try an option. Look how many years turbo was discarded. Almost everything has one now, partly due to it being developed and demonstrated in F1

Not sure which part you're responding to. Bu hydrogen has hard physical limitations, that cannot be engineered around. It's storage/transport will always be troublesome. It's efficiency in a fuel cell may be improved, but its use in an engine is nonsensical.

As for ICE it's also limited by a physical barrier the Carnot limit. To which they got admirable close to in F1. As such there's little to no efficiency to be gained.

[NL_Fer]

From all I have read, I got the idea, that the 2026 synthetic fuel is not bio based. But more like a drop-in gasoline, with the same C-H parts like fossil fuel has now. But then made from captured carbon and green hydrogen.

[Big Tea]

I very much doubt so. Anything ICE won't go much past 50%, in ideal circumstances.
(Also, hydrogen is pretty much vaporware. Way too wasteful and problematic to produce, handle and use.)

Its the things we have not thought of because there is no 'pigeon hole' for them that could be the very ones that could be the real key. No one is going to produce and develop something with no gain from it, this would at least give a place to try an option. Look how many years turbo was discarded. Almost everything has one now, partly due to it being developed and demonstrated in F1

Not sure which part you're responding to. Bu hydrogen has hard physical limitations, that cannot be engineered around. It's storage/transport will always be troublesome. It's efficiency in a fuel cell may be improved, but its use in an engine is nonsensical.

As for ICE it's also limited by a physical barrier the Carnot limit. To which they got admirable close to in F1. As such there's little to no efficiency to be gained.

What I mean is why limit it to Hydrogen? There can be lots of alternatives all with some drawbacks and some advantages. For instance, SpaceX is using Methane in its rockets ( with oxy admittedly ), but that is what is available where they want to go.

There are options that are not viable on road vehicles, but are for other uses.

[mzso]

From all I have read, I got the idea, that the 2026 synthetic fuel is not bio based. But more like a drop-in gasoline, with the same C-H parts like fossil fuel has now. But then made from captured carbon and green hydrogen.

Well, they explicitly said unused waste, but they did claim it was drop-in as far as octane number goes. I never saw they claim it was identical chemically.

[mzso]

What I mean is why limit it to Hydrogen? There can be lots of alternatives all with some drawbacks and some advantages. For instance, SpaceX is using Methane in its rockets ( with oxy admittedly ), but that is what is available where they want to go.

There are options that are not viable on road vehicles, but are for other uses.

Why specify anything? Just set an engine development cost cap and a power limit, and let them do whatever they want. From electric motors to gas turbines.

Ultimately I think fuel cells fueled with some simpler alkanes would suit F1 best. Considering performance and the desire for electrification.

[Big Tea]

What I mean is why limit it to Hydrogen? There can be lots of alternatives all with some drawbacks and some advantages. For instance, SpaceX is using Methane in its rockets ( with oxy admittedly ), but that is what is available where they want to go.

There are options that are not viable on road vehicles, but are for other uses.

Why specify anything? Just set an engine development cost cap and a power limit, and let them do whatever they want. From electric motors to gas turbines.

Ultimately I think fuel cells fueled with some simpler alkanes would suit F1 best. Considering performance and the desire for electrification.

That is what I was trying to say. There has to be rules to give it a similar performance celling to the 'standard' F1 engine, but otherwise bring what you got. 2stroke diesel Wankel steam clockwork or elastic.

[Tommy Cookers]

Ultimately I think fuel cells fueled with some simpler alkanes would suit F1 best...

have they now been made to work ?

[Big Tea]

Ultimately I think fuel cells fueled with some simpler alkanes would suit F1 best...

have they now been made to work ?

Have F1 engineers worked on them (sorry)

[Stu]

What I mean is why limit it to Hydrogen? There can be lots of alternatives all with some drawbacks and some advantages. For instance, SpaceX is using Methane in its rockets ( with oxy admittedly ), but that is what is available where they want to go.

There are options that are not viable on road vehicles, but are for other uses.

Why specify anything? Just set an engine development cost cap and a power limit, and let them do whatever they want. From electric motors to gas turbines.

Ultimately I think fuel cells fueled with some simpler alkanes would suit F1 best. Considering performance and the desire for electrification.

…that ticks so many boxes for future development that could help with transferable tech into road cars, it nails the two most important factors concerning engine development, both of which are measurable AND capable of being regulated.

[Just_a_fan]

Look how many years turbo was discarded. Almost everything has one now, partly due to it being developed and demonstrated in F1

The take up of road car turbos doesn't have anything to do with F1, it's driven by emissions and efficiency requirements set out in legislation.

[mzso]

Ultimately I think fuel cells fueled with some simpler alkanes would suit F1 best...

have they now been made to work ?

They always worked. Fore example: http://web.archive.org/web/202006102329 ... W-TOPS-120
Is it mature? Certainly not. Surely seriously underdeveloped. Someone needs to invest substantial effort for that.
But that would be the main actual use of F1. Develop new and useful technology.

[mzso]

…that ticks so many boxes for future development that could help with transferable tech into road cars, it nails the two most important factors concerning engine development, both of which are measurable AND capable of being regulated.

Sadly it seems to boil down to comparing the interests of the parties at play, and then arguing, lobbying and manipulating about them.

[J.A.W.]

…that ticks so many boxes for future development that could help with transferable tech into road cars, it nails the two most important factors concerning engine development, both of which are measurable AND capable of being regulated.

Sadly it seems to boil down to comparing the interests of the parties at play, and then arguing, lobbying and manipulating about them.

Boil down like whale oil? That's so last millennium, but yeah, seems you've got it, its now about - THE BIG SHOW!

Of course additional 'lip-service' being paid to whatever 'image-presentation/perception' is duly to be deemed a
needful sop for any such 'pressure-group' based 'virtue-signal' requirements, as maybe, ah.. thrown up.

No longer can 'mere technical facts' - be allowed to - 'cloud the issue'...