F1 pistons and their makers

[Ciro Pabón]

Did you know that 8 out of 11 engine manufacturers in F1 use Mahle pistons? I had no idea...

http://www.mahle.com/C125705E004FDAF9/v ... P223STULEN

[cba_]

So what piston do those other team use?

Since they dont list what teams, i call BS

[tommylommykins]

Yes... I've always imagined that since tems spent gazillions on in house developers just for engines, they would be making their own pistons. Seems a bit silly to build your own engine block yourself, spend an age tuning it perfectly, and then taking a stroll off to the nearest hardware store to grab yourself some pistons on the cheap...

Anyway, look at the wording:

In Formula 1, all driver and constructor world championships have been won with MAHLE Motorsports components for seven consecutive years. In 2007, eight of the eleven Formula 1 teams put their trust in the performance and reliability of our Motorsports components

It doesn't exactly really mean very much, does it? Seven Championships were won 'with' Mahle 'components'... eight teams 'put their trust' in their 'motorsport components'. What were these components? In what way did they put their trust in them? For all I know, some teams looked at some stuff, decided it wasn't anything special, flushed it down the toilet, and 'put their trust' in the factthat they wouldn't cause a messy blockage on the way down

[ISLAMATRON]

The teams would buy the pistons for the same reason they buy tires from B'stone & dont make their own.

I assume the pistos are forged, which requires some pretty heavy duty machinery, so all they have to do is design them and then send the spec to the company to produce them. Arent most of the components from the cars acquired in this manner these days? None of the teams make their own fuel tanks or brake pads/rotors, or calipers.

Outsourcing is very common in F1 is it not?

[tommylommykins]

Perhaps I mix up design and manufacture then...

[Giblet]

Yeah... F1 teams are known for their carbon fibre shops, and machine shops.

Foundries are a different matter.

Did you know you can make your own home foundry with a crappy old microwave?

http://home.c2i.net/metaphor/Microwave_ ... tures.html

[Ian P.]

I can only come up with 6 engine manufacturers in 2008 and 5 in 2009.
You have to go a bit further back to find some more, Peugeot, Cosworth, Meugen, Yamaha. Still not 11 unless you through in Supertech.
My bet is that Honda and Ferreri manufacture their own pistons.
Does Mahle make connecting rods....??

[safeaschuck]

Mahle make rods, they make and awful lot of bits, not saying they supply them to F1 but they are available and I'm sure some teams use them. Their analysis work on pistons design is widely held to be the best available and they are highly respected amongst niche engine builders.
The most common complaints are that they take forever to make something, and if you only want a few parts, forget it.

Ha ha! 8 out of 11, how does that work then??? Oh I see, so they said teams, so some had their minds made up for them.... Aside from Mahle I would imagine Cosworth would be one of the only outfits in a position to tender for Piston work in F1, they are or at least have been at times, a pretty big player in the high end piston market and one of the few that have genuine expertise and have maintained the investment necessary to be taken seriously as a potential sub-contractor to F1.

As for why the teams don't do it themselves, I would imagine that it is simply too many specialist processes. The jigs on the CNC milling stations have to be repeatably accurate to 2 microns which means buying dedicated machines for each set up of the piston machining process (3 mills per piston min.) plus you need a forge press, an elliptical turning lathe, and the capability to add a variety of coatings as they are proven out by R&D.
I would imagine that as most of the data on piston design that they build up with Mahle is open to them anyway they are not fussed about adding to their own knowledge base, also if your thinking of, or are already making the next big thing in road car engines, chances are you will use Mahle pistons in it anyway.

[kNt]

Some math:
8 of 11 Teams and all WDC and WCC since 7 years would make Ferrari (3), Renault (2), Mercedes (1) plus either Honda(2) or Toyota(2). Honda(2) or Toyota(2) and BMW(1) are not using them.

[Tim.Wright]

Outsourcing is pretty commin in F1 as it is in many other industries

I responded here because I recall seeing mahle logos on ferarri's many times.
Brembo do most people's brakes
Magnetti Marelli are a pretty common electronics supplier
I've heard lola used to do some composite processing for Jaguar
Theres even a company who supply air filters to F1 teams but the name escapes me
clutches are commonly outsourced

Thats all I can think of now. Have a read through Racecar engineering and you will see how big the support industry around F1 is.

-Tim

[RacingManiac]

Made by Mahle doesn't mean they are the same piston....

Did you know both Audi and Peugeot's diesel LMP car uses Mahle piston? Do you think they are the same? One is Aluminum and one is steel....

In fact those 2 LMP shares a lot of the suppliers(Bosch ECU and high pressure fuel system, Dow Automotive particular filter...etc), because at that level, people who possess the level of competence that you need is few and far between....

You bring in the specialist, tell them what you want out of their product, and let them go to work....

[safeaschuck]

Yep Maniac, Mahle have got a near lockdown on Deisel racing Pistons from knowledge they built up on High-Perf. Derv roadcars. Many of the racing piston manufacturers have always built for spark ignition engines only, why would you race a diesel!!! Now Mahle are laughing, no one else knows how to make them good enough yet, also the quantities are still relatively low to spread around.
They are a particular oddity because forging in one piece ala spark ignition is near impossible - they require an oil chamber within the crown to keep them cool enough...

Absolutely right Tim, There are a lot of people out there who are very nervous about the future. Apart from some historic racing, the motorsport industry in general will be shrinking in the downturn, particularly here in England. The reason for the success we enjoy in this country is mainly due to the very rapid turnaround times U.K. engineering companies can offer and this in turn is a legacy of our manufacturing past. Much of the older larger infrastructure is now gone, re-located for cheaper labour, but many smaller highly skilled companies remain, with C.A.D. designers and C.N.C. Machines in every corner of the globe right now it is these people who are really keeping F1 in the U.K.
As each specialist sub-contractor over here flounders and possibly succumbs so disappears another way of getting a complex multi operation part made quicker than rivals in mainland Europe or Japan.
I'm sure if another country with low labour costs or a depressed currency made a concerted push to get this expertise and equipment geographically close together and near a major world hub England could easily be usurped as Motorsport factory of the world.

For instance If an F1 sub-contractor bids to make something which they merely machine themselves then send onto further subcontractors for say heat-treat, polishing and surface coating they may soon be having to send the parts considerably further away to get the work done. You will never here about the demise of these firms, even in the local newspapers, in fact even if you are in the industry you may not hear about it until you phone them to get work done!
I'm sure a lot of people on here know this already, just pointing out to the others how grim it is at the mo for a lot of people.
Gordon Brown - save our engineering firms or loose the motorsport industry forever!
Need any more cheering up just let me know!
P.S. Although I state a lot of this like fact, as you will see I have no figures, it is only based on my own observations, and the observations of some of those I know.

Whew

[axle]

TO quote the website correctly, Ciro , "In 2007, eight of the eleven Formula 1 teams"

Why re-invent the wheel, Mahle are the unofficial champions of piston making - why fight them?

They are obviously used by the Ferrari engine, and 1 or 2 others to account for the 8teams (3 ferrari engines, 2 toyota's and 2 renaults would be my GUESS).

[safeaschuck]

Why re-invent the wheel, Mahle are the unofficial champions of piston making - why fight them?

Haha! indeed, when you are the best who's going to argue details, crush the fools!

Seriously though, they may make very good pistons but if they won't make yours because your not ordering enough or you can't wait 6 months they are no good to you are they?
I might have said a lot of race engine builders respect them, but most don't use them. There are plenty of firms out there who are faster, more flexible and cheaper and some of them can make a product very much comparable with Mahle considering the time frame they have.

[Belatti]

Many right things have been said.

I can add that I have worked for a Federal Mogul piston factory under de AE Goetze brand, in the process engineering office. I made pistons for street cars and trucks. FM has a similar global market share than Mahle but thats not the case in F1. FM is American and Mahle is German, maybe that has something to do...

The client-supplier process can be like this:
a. The car manufacturer brings you the design (blueprints) and you only take that to reality.
b. The car manufacturer ask for your expertise in the design process but designs the piston themselves.
c. The car manufacturer gives you the engine characteristics and the piston company designs the piston.

The piston pin, rings and header design have much to do so its common that the same manufacturer that provides the piston, also provides you the pin and rings and tells you how to model the combustion chamber, header side. The valves and its cinematics are a different story.

As RacingManiac said, not all the pistons are the same. Even maybe betwee two Renault engines with different specs are not the same.

What ISLAMATRON said:

The teams would buy the pistons for the same reason they buy tires from B'stone & dont make their own

and:

As for why the teams don't do it themselves, I would imagine that it is simply too many specialist processes. The jigs on the CNC milling stations have to be repeatably accurate to 2 microns which means buying dedicated machines for each set up of the piston machining process (3 mills per piston min.) plus you need a forge press, an elliptical turning lathe, and the capability to add a variety of coatings as they are proven out by R&D.

is totally right.