2022 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 29 - 31

[Just_a_fan]

This is the way I see it: Let's say a "Perfect" drive constitutes a driver getting 100% out of a given car on any given track. Hitting every turn perfectly, utilizing ERS perfectly, accelerating at the right time out of every turn at the right amount, manage tyre deg perfectly, etc. The best drivers in the world; The Hamilton's, the Schumachers, the Sennas, and so on, are the drivers who drive as close to perfect more often than most other drivers. I don't believe even the best drivers regularly drive 100% every race, every lap, but they get close more often.

Todays drivers like Verstappen, Leclerc, Russel, Lando will drive closer to that 100% than say Latifi, Stroll, Tsunoda etc. As an example, Verstappen probably drives that RB at an average of 97%-98% whereas Perez probably averages around 94%-95%. But no, you can't drive better than perfect.

Neither of them qualify as one of the best drivers the way I see it. Schumacher and Senna were collision causing jerks/bullies who had a lot of bias towards them. Hamilton just drove the utterly fastest car while being decidedly better than Bottas, marginally better than Rosberg, and not at all better than a newcomer Russel.

If you were a Hamilton fan saying that about Max, you'd be dog piled and then banned.

[vorticism]

That's probably for the best; he's a better face for the sport.

[mzso]

If you were a Hamilton fan saying that about Max, you'd be dog piled and then banned.

Well, that wouldn't be true. Verstappen never had a dominant car. This year's around the same performance as Ferrari, but with better reliability. Last year's was variable, seemed rather slower by the end.

[ringo]

If you were a Hamilton fan saying that about Max, you'd be dog piled and then banned.

Well, that wouldn't be true. Verstappen never had a dominant car. This year's around the same performance as Ferrari, but with better reliability. Last year's was variable, seemed rather slower by the end.

And never had a good teammate either..

What we do know is Max is not the fastes over a lap. Perez can beat him 1 out of 5 times.
Perez by no means is a qualy specialist.
As someone said earlier the drivers are very close. And I disagree that we can say one guy gets 98%. No one truly knows. He could be getting only 90% out of a car all this time with teammates getting 88%. And some other guys is getting 95% out of his dog car.
In fact no one can know where 100% is. No simulator can say this. Track temperatures change constantly and wind and rubber level.
A driver can only step outside of certain delta time for it to be obvious if he is under or ovrr performing. For example lets say rubber, wind temp, etc etc. factors account for 7 tenths. A very wide range to fall in or out of.
So for me good ole teammate comparison and test driver simulation is a good indicator.

[mendis]

So the nonsense of driver d*** comparison starts, again.

[Just_a_fan]

So the nonsense of driver d*** comparison starts, again.

There seems to be a need amongst some to trash talk other drivers in order to make their preferred driver look better.

[Sieper]

and actual untruths are being used for that, Max beat Sergio 19-1 last year and 9-3 this year, that is 28-4. Perez cant actually beat him "1 out of 5 times." And 2 of the 3 times he beat Max this year was as Max had a red flag on his last run (Monaco and Baku). 1 of those caused by Perez himself. On both Runs Max was on his way to beat Perez. Max has long been taking only close to maximum risk on his last Q3 lap now, he is in the fight for a WDC, you must foremost not make mistakes. In fact, Max has since 2018 always had one of the largest gaps (in time difference) to his teammate (in qualy) of the whole grid.

Max is not the fastest over one lap is not a fact. His racedays are very good yes but so is his qualy.

[SiLo]

This is the way I see it: Let's say a "Perfect" drive constitutes a driver getting 100% out of a given car on any given track. Hitting every turn perfectly, utilizing ERS perfectly, accelerating at the right time out of every turn at the right amount, manage tyre deg perfectly, etc. The best drivers in the world; The Hamilton's, the Schumachers, the Sennas, and so on, are the drivers who drive as close to perfect more often than most other drivers. I don't believe even the best drivers regularly drive 100% every race, every lap, but they get close more often.

Todays drivers like Verstappen, Leclerc, Russel, Lando will drive closer to that 100% than say Latifi, Stroll, Tsunoda etc. As an example, Verstappen probably drives that RB at an average of 97%-98% whereas Perez probably averages around 94%-95%. But no, you can't drive better than perfect.

Neither of them qualify as one of the best drivers the way I see it. Schumacher and Senna were collision causing jerks/bullies who had a lot of bias towards them. Hamilton just drove the utterly fastest car while being decidedly better than Bottas, marginally better than Rosberg, and not at all better than a newcomer Russel.

I wouldn't usually reply to a post like this, but I felt I had to because it was just too special.

Not sure I've seen so much ignorance in two sentences for quite some time.

[Cs98]

If you were a Hamilton fan saying that about Max, you'd be dog piled and then banned.

Well, that wouldn't be true. Verstappen never had a dominant car. This year's around the same performance as Ferrari, but with better reliability. Last year's was variable, seemed rather slower by the end.

And never had a good teammate either..

What we do know is Max is not the fastes over a lap. Perez can beat him 1 out of 5 times.
Perez by no means is a qualy specialist.
As someone said earlier the drivers are very close. And I disagree that we can say one guy gets 98%. No one truly knows. He could be getting only 90% out of a car all this time with teammates getting 88%. And some other guys is getting 95% out of his dog car.
In fact no one can know where 100% is. No simulator can say this. Track temperatures change constantly and wind and rubber level.
A driver can only step outside of certain delta time for it to be obvious if he is under or ovrr performing. For example lets say rubber, wind temp, etc etc. factors account for 7 tenths. A very wide range to fall in or out of.
So for me good ole teammate comparison and test driver simulation is a good indicator.

Max is something like 80-9 vs teammates over the past 5 years. That is far and away the best head to head record of any driver on the grid. Ruling him out of the conversation as best qualifier is straight fantalk. Other "good qualifiers" over that timeframe, Leclerc 65-29, Lewis 63-30.

[Sieper]

It indeed is revisionist. Not saying Others like Lando and Charles and yes, Lewis too, aren't great qualifiers, but a statement like Max is not the fastest over one lap is plain wrong.

[vorticism]

Max is something like 80-9 vs teammates over the past 5 years. Other "good qualifiers" over that timeframe, Leclerc 65-29, Lewis 63-30.

Hard to image Perez pulling a Rosberg.

[Just_a_fan]

Well, that wouldn't be true. Verstappen never had a dominant car. This year's around the same performance as Ferrari, but with better reliability. Last year's was variable, seemed rather slower by the end.

And never had a good teammate either..

What we do know is Max is not the fastes over a lap. Perez can beat him 1 out of 5 times.
Perez by no means is a qualy specialist.
As someone said earlier the drivers are very close. And I disagree that we can say one guy gets 98%. No one truly knows. He could be getting only 90% out of a car all this time with teammates getting 88%. And some other guys is getting 95% out of his dog car.
In fact no one can know where 100% is. No simulator can say this. Track temperatures change constantly and wind and rubber level.
A driver can only step outside of certain delta time for it to be obvious if he is under or ovrr performing. For example lets say rubber, wind temp, etc etc. factors account for 7 tenths. A very wide range to fall in or out of.
So for me good ole teammate comparison and test driver simulation is a good indicator.

Max is something like 80-9 vs teammates over the past 5 years. That is far and away the best head to head record of any driver on the grid. Ruling him out of the conversation as best qualifier is straight fantalk. Other "good qualifiers" over that timeframe, Leclerc 65-29, Lewis 63-30.

As with all of these comparisons, one has to take account of who was in the other car. Some drivers are fast over a single lap even if their race pace is less noteworthy - the "Trulli effect" we might call it. Not all of Max's team mates have been speedy over even one lap - your Albons and your Gaslys. That's not Max's problem, of course, as he can only go up against the guys that the team employs.

Bottas, for example, could turn out some fast laps in qualifying but then fail to maintain that performance through the race. He might also do it more at certain tracks than others. Bottas has 20 poles but only 10 wins. Lewis has 103 poles, 103 wins. So Bottas's conversion rate in a top car was pretty rubbish.

Then, there are teams where the drivers are just naturally closer in terms of inherent pace - Leclerc and Sainz, for example, would probably be considered inherently closer than Max and Sergio. I don't think that's controversial to suggest.

So we can agree that Max is obviously one of the very best - its just that comparisons between drivers not in the same team are pointless because there are too many variables. You can only compare in a team and even then there are variable that would need to be considered.

[Sieper]

There are some guys who have been doing just that. Comparing to teammates and then those to their other teammates and so on. I referenced that website already I believe in this topic.

You would need to pit drivers against eachother in their own prime in a car both are either familiar with, or both aren’t. Or perhaps even 1/3 in a car where one is familiar with, 1/3 the other and 1/3 both unfamiliar.

E.g. it’s never going to happen.

[Hammerfist]

I could never take Max’s stats vs his teammates that seriously. Redbull prioritizes him so much that I don’t think it’s really fair to the other guy. Max can prove a lot if he goes to another team and shows the same level of dominance he’s had over his teammates on one lap. At the moment I think his record is somewhat meaningless because the simple fact he is not always driving the same car as his teammate and car. development is definitely geared towards his liking. Redbull finally admitted that last year although they have somewhat backtracked it this year. But it’s been my belief for years. Let him go to Mercedes’ and dominate George Russell. I will be impressed then.

[Just_a_fan]

There are some guys who have been doing just that. Comparing to teammates and then those to their other teammates and so on. I referenced that website already I believe in this topic.

You would need to pit drivers against eachother in their own prime in a car both are either familiar with, or both aren’t. Or perhaps even 1/3 in a car where one is familiar with, 1/3 the other and 1/3 both unfamiliar.

E.g. it’s never going to happen.

I've seen various comparisons over the years and all are flawed. One can only compare drivers in the same car. Anything else is hand waving nonsense.

Likewise the idea of a GOAT. Sure, pick a particular metric e.g. race wins and you can say "that driver has the most therefore he is the GOAT" but it ignores so many variables that it is pointless. What would Senna's record be if he hadn't died? Or Clark's? Indeed, compare someone like Clark - who raced in everything during his career, from F1 down to saloon cars during each year he competed - with the one-trick ponies that F1 drivers are these days. There's no comparison. Modern drivers are like race horses - they are bred to do one thing. Back in the day, they were more like eventers - they do lots of things and they have to do them all really well. Funnily enough, race horses are usually famous and eventers aren't.

If you put a gun against my head and said "who is the GOAT?" I'd say Fangio. But others will say Clark, or Senna or Michael or... And we'd all be equally right and equally wrong.