2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[ISLAMATRON]

How is Max wiping out their value? Ferrari have their own test track that they cant use because of the (FOTA approved) test ban, several teams have 2 or full scale wind tunnels that cant be used because of the wind tunnel restrictions put in place.

If their wage bills are 40 mil then this is their opportunity to get leaner and possibly turn a profit, and we all get more teams and better racing from it... what are you people all up in arms about.

Any Ferrari engineer that losses his job would quickly get picked up by one of the new teams.. new teams that will only enter the sport if they can compete on a reasonable budget, 40 mil (not including driver/engine & hospitality) is actually a bit higher than reasonable.

Do you people realize we are down to 20 cars this year and it very well could have been 18... when have you seen that few cars on the grid? What is more important? Ferrari getting to hide their MAfia payoffs to the event stewards or having a full grid of 26 cars all of which having at least a financially equal chance of being viable and competitive?

[axle]

How is Max wiping out their value? Ferrari have their own test track that they cant use because of the (FOTA approved) test ban, several teams have 2 or full scale wind tunnels that cant be used because of the wind tunnel restrictions put in place.

If their wage bills are 40 mil then this is their opportunity to get leaner and possibly turn a profit, and we all get more teams and better racing from it... what are you people all up in arms about.

Any Ferrari engineer that losses his job would quickly get picked up by one of the new teams.. new teams that will only enter the sport if they can compete on a reasonable budget, 40 mil (not including driver/engine & hospitality) is actually a bit higher than reasonable.

Do you people realize we are down to 20 cars this year and it very well could have been 18... when have you seen that few cars on the grid? What is more important? Ferrari getting to hide their MAfia payoffs to the event stewards or having a full grid of 26 cars all of which having at least a financially equal chance of being viable and competitive?

For the last time.

The Teams want to cut costs.

The Teams DON'T want Max and his cronies deciding how.

They want sufficient time (not a knee jerk reaction) to devise a fair and decent way.

The teams have pre-existing facilities/contracts/personnel that will all have to be sorted out and that cannot happen over night. 6 months is overnight in business!

The teams want to work with the FIA not have the FIA bitch and threaten them.

I side 100% with the teams. They want to cut costs WITHOUT ruining the spectacle or peoples lives.

What happens in F1 has knock on effects to countless other businesses.

[gcdugas]

Mercedes and the FOTA/FIA row....

The FIA may think that recent headlines concerning Mercedes wanting to stay in F1 Clicky will stem the tide against them but they should think again. This "support" from Mercedes is paper thin because the right questions haven't been asked...

I will not presume to answer for Mercedes. I will only ask the questions and then let the reader decide.

1.) If all the other manufacturers leave F1 and set up a rival series, would Mercedes want to be seen racing their peers meritoriously or would they want to be seen as the sole engine supplier in the crumbling remains of a defunct series of kit car spec racers?

2.) If Mercedes would want to race their peers in a new rival GP series, would they want to be passive participants having no say in the rules, organization, determination of funds distribution, participate in the commercial rights etc.

3.) If they would want to have a determining hand in such a series with their manufacturing rivals, would they leave their $100M friend Max Mosley and the ashes of F1 completely to compete in a series that has the cache of Alonso, Vettel, Ferrari, Renault, Toyota, BMW?

Let the reader decide....

[timbo]

and we all get more teams and better racing from it...

Better racing is not an automatic consequence of having more teams. This year we have closest grid in F1 history ever. I think THAT is good racing.

Do you people realize we are down to 20 cars this year and it very well could have been 18... when have you seen that few cars on the grid? What is more important? Ferrari getting to hide their MAfia payoffs to the event stewards or having a full grid of 26 cars all of which having at least a financially equal chance of being viable and competitive?

In order to get under the cap it is easier to create new structure than to downsize existent one. Why the rules are in favour of teams entering F1 than those already on the grid?
Yeah, there are serious threats on industry/F1 but is it a good idea to solve things through offers that are clearly against the will of half competitors?

[gcdugas]

One thing is not logical about this F1 pull out. Ferrari claim that they cannot reduce their workforce fast enough to make the budget cap. But if they do not enter F1 next year they will not need their F1 team either. They have to dismantle it completely as opposed to just cutting it down and put the guys on completely new projects. It does not sound so convincing that they would want to do that.

They will be employed racing in the FOTA-GP series. Do you think that all these teams are going to quit and do nothing? They have a plan. Tomorrow the 15th, either they will hobble Max into recanting and accepting the FOTA budget proposals in toto, hold him to his non-reelection promise, or F1 will split when the May 29 entry deadline for 2010 entries hits. Bernie may not be able to control Max. Don't count on it. We saw that at Indy in 2005. Max is more than stubborn and possibly, compounded by the death of his son Alexander, Max may be more mentally unstable than usual and self destructive. One thing for sure is that he is NOT rational.

[gcdugas]

There are actually at least THREE reasons why the teams are threatening to leave:

1) They do not want to open their books to the Evil Twins

2) They want a voice in the decision-making process

3) They do not want a two-class F1

Any more I missed?

Yes, Max has B.O.

[DaveKillens]

If Max's actions seriously threaten Bernie's financial empire, Bernie will find a way to remove Max from his power. He and Max pulled one of the classic examples of treachery and deceit when they deposed Balestre. So it's very possible.

Last year Max was persona non grata at Monaco because of his personal indescretions. This year it appears he may be back, but now, under a dark cloud. You cannot make major financial deals when the future of the sport is threatened.

I believe this is not a bluff by Ferrari. They have made threats before, and even withdrawn from series because they did not agree with the rules. For instance, after the performance of the big V8-powered Ford at the 1967 Le Mans, the FIA banned prototypes over 3000cc, which also affected the Ferrari 330P models. This was announced in late 1967 and came in effect for 1968, and the official Ferrari team has never raced at LeMans again. And during the turbo era, Ferrari protested them, and threatened to withdraw and go to CART. Three years later turbos ceased to exist in F1.

[andartop]

The cap is optional, the teams have every right to waste as much as they wish and continue an artificially regulated rules package and be much slower.

This also works the other way around: new teams can grab the opportunity to enter F1 now that places are available and they will have every right to spend no more than 40mil and be much slower..

I don't understand why it seems so reasonable to some people that a new team entering formula 1 SHOULD be able to win straight away.. we're supposed to be talking about the pinnacle of motorsports, where the brightest minds of the engineering world, along with the best designers and most talented drivers compete at a 110% level.. reason says "dumbing" down the regulations or imposing caps to create equal opportunities is no way to progress. I would try to up the ante in lower categories where costs are easier to control and police, thus easing the way of new teams progressively into the top tier..

That said, I recognize F1 does have a need to cut costs. There are ways to do this, but it should be a decision thought carefully and taken democratically, not imposed overnight by the FIA. I definitely would start by getting rid of those ridiculous motorhomes though..

[donskar]

There are actually at least THREE reasons why the teams are threatening to leave:

1) They do not want to open their books to the Evil Twins

2) They want a voice in the decision-making process

3) They do not want a two-class F1

Any more I missed?

3) THERE IS NO 2 CLASS IF EVERYBODY AGREES TO THE CAP

2) They DO have a voice... Refuel Ban, weight limit increase, all their ideas

1) Who cares about their books... are they laundering money for the Italian Mob? what is so bad about showing how much they pay for nuts and bolts? Are they embarrassed at the level of waste?

I'll comment on this post -- not the poster: insulting to our intelligence.

Example:
"3) THERE IS NO 2 CLASS IF EVERYBODY AGREES TO THE CAP"
Analogy -- There will be no robbery if you hand over your money.

Example:
"1) Who cares about their books... are they laundering money for the Italian Mob? what is so bad about showing how much they pay for nuts and bolts? Are they embarrassed at the level of waste?[/quote]"
I assume you are NOT naive or stupid. But this comment suggests you think WE are naive or stupid.

[donskar]

Any Ferrari engineer that losses his job would quickly get picked up by one of the new teams.. new teams that will only enter the sport if they can compete on a reasonable budget, 40 mil (not including driver/engine & hospitality) is actually a bit higher than reasonable.

This statement shows an astonishing heartlessness and lack of human feeling. I have been in the unhappy position to have to layoff hundreds of people over the years. It hurts human beings -- not numbers -- people. It wrecks marriages and families. It uproots people who might have to move hundreds or thousands of miles. Especially true in Ferrari's situation -- many senior people might have to take crippling pay cuts or move to England or Germany or USA.

Do you people realize we are down to 20 cars this year and it very well could have been 18... when have you seen that few cars on the grid? What is more important? Ferrari getting to hide their MAfia payoffs to the event stewards or having a full grid of 26 cars all of which having at least a financially equal chance of being viable and competitive?

Pathetic.

[gridwalker]

Any Ferrari engineer that losses his job would quickly get picked up by one of the new teams.. new teams that will only enter the sport if they can compete on a reasonable budget, 40 mil (not including driver/engine & hospitality) is actually a bit higher than reasonable.

This statement shows an astonishing heartlessness and lack of human feeling. I have been in the unhappy position to have to layoff hundreds of people over the years. It hurts human beings -- not numbers -- people. It wrecks marriages and families. It uproots people who might have to move hundreds or thousands of miles. Especially true in Ferrari's situation -- many senior people might have to take crippling pay cuts or move to England or Germany or USA.

Additionally, how much do you think the existing teams have already invested in training and development of the staff that they'd have to lay off? This is not only just in money, but also in facilities, equipment and manhours ...

How do you think these teams feel about their sizable investment being wasted through forced redundancy (without even taking into account payoffs for prematurely terminated contracts), only for those former team members to move on to the new teams, taking their knowledge & experience with them?

No organisation in their right mind would submit to such conditions without a fight.

It's all well and good looking at the utopia of a cost capped formula through the filter of an enthusiast wishing to see larger grids through mandatory cost cutting, but when enforcing such a scheme in the real world would actually wast vast sums of time & money that have already been invested over many years (making the sport the success that it is) whilst the commercial rights holders continue to soak up the majority of the revenue, suddenly it seems more like daylight robbery.

[WhiteBlue]

One of the reasons that McMerc is so mum on the FIA/FOTA war is the austerity scheme that the board is driving at the AGM. Above you can see public protests by workers against Dieter Zetsches plans to introduce major pay cuts.

If Merc would threaten to withdraw from F1 there would be no way back if things can be resolved by negotiations in the next weeks as many think they will.

There will surely be a lot of hardship when they implement the budget cap but most manufacturer teams (bar Renault) will be able to shift resources to road car projects. Certainly Ferrari, BMW, Toyota and McLaren should be able to do this without much forced redundancies. And lets not forget that pulling out of F1 would also make the F1 specialists redundant.

[WhiteBlue]

FIA should be referees and that's all, they should enforce agreed rules. Not make them up whilst the game is being played.

That is what is happening. And at the moment the rules for 2010 are being finalized ahead of the design process.

Why should the FIA have access to their accounts?

Because it is the referee who ultimately will have to rule in a case of disagreement.

Why didn't the FIA talk to the teams BEFORE "rubber stamping" a new set of rules, that need to be implemented in ~6 months!
Why does it have to be from 2010?

The FIA has talked about the budget caps and the need for new teams for years. Unfortunately all talks ended in stalls.

Why don't they ask about 3 car teams?

That is no solution because sooner or later there would be four and five car teams.

Why don't they investigate cost savings through materials/technologies?

Because without cost cap the rich teams will always spent all they have to gain a competitive advantage which in turn will keep new entrants out.

Why don't they suggest a staggered budget capping policy? 2010 £xxxmillion/ 2011 £xxmillion etc...

That has been discussed without a chance for agreement due to the huge differences of proposed budget levels.

[ISLAMATRON]

For the last time.

The Teams want to cut costs.

The Teams DON'T want Max and his cronies deciding how.

They want sufficient time (not a knee jerk reaction) to devise a fair and decent way.

The teams have pre-existing facilities/contracts/personnel that will all have to be sorted out and that cannot happen over night. 6 months is overnight in business!

The teams want to work with the FIA not have the FIA bitch and threaten them.

I side 100% with the teams. They want to cut costs WITHOUT ruining the spectacle or peoples lives.

What happens in F1 has knock on effects to countless other businesses.

The teams(especially the top & manufacturers i.e. Ferrari) have been stalling on cost cutting for years, is Max supposed to wait for them to act when they have made very little moves to do so over the last decade? In the meantime the field shrinks every season... Ferrari doesnt care how many teams are on the grid(example USGP 2005), they just care that they beat whoever else is there. They were asked for help by BGP and bailed out on them, if not for Merc BGP might not be on the grid... how is that for your "spectacle"

As i See it it it is Ferrari who is bitching & threatening... they have every opportunity to continue their free spending ways... the budget cap is optional

I side 100% with the fans(not just the Tifosi)... the Budget caps are an FIA insurance policy against all the manufacturers leaving and decimating the sport... which we have seen time and time again in motorsport. We were all shocked at Honda's sudden departure... how could that not have opened your eyes... or are they only set upon Marenello?

Better racing is not an automatic consequence of having more teams. This year we have closest grid in F1 history ever. I think THAT is good racing.

In order to get under the cap it is easier to create new structure than to downsize existent one. Why the rules are in favour of teams entering F1 than those already on the grid?
Yeah, there are serious threats on industry/F1 but is it a good idea to solve things through offers that are clearly against the will of half competitors?

you are correct... more teams does not equal better racing.. but more teams means more engineers which equals more ideas and it also means more drivers... Yes it is the closest grid in F1 history, and would be even closer if BGP went under, seeing how thy have won 4 of 5... so you ask yourself is closer always better?

The rules are not in FAvor of new teams... the existing teams have every opp to join the cap and would have to adhere to the same rules... the cap is merely an incentive for new teams to join in as opposed to the norm of existing teams folding. The rules might actualy favor the existing teams who join the cap, Ferrari already have their own test track and would be able to use it unlimited... what new team can say that?

I'll comment on this post -- not the poster: insulting to our intelligence.

Example:
"3) THERE IS NO 2 CLASS IF EVERYBODY AGREES TO THE CAP"
Analogy -- There will be no robbery if you hand over your money.

Example:
"1) Who cares about their books... are they laundering money for the Italian Mob? what is so bad about showing how much they pay for nuts and bolts? Are they embarrassed at the level of waste?
I assume you are NOT naive or stupid. But this comment suggests you think WE are naive or stupid.

It suggests no such thing... as an american Donskar you know every major US sport operates on a budget cap for players... that means every player's(human beings with an intrinsic right to privacy) salary is well known or easily accessible... why is it that Ferrari or any other cap team cant divulge the costs of nut & bolts or carbon? Remember that hospitality is not in the cap so they dont have to show that... so what other sensitive information do they need to hide so preciously? This is just more BS by the teams, just like the scrambling of team radios... were they really saying anything that secret? or were they trying to hide the illegal --- they do?

[ISLAMATRON]

This statement shows an astonishing heartlessness and lack of human feeling. I have been in the unhappy position to have to layoff hundreds of people over the years. It hurts human beings -- not numbers -- people. It wrecks marriages and families. It uproots people who might have to move hundreds or thousands of miles. Especially true in Ferrari's situation -- many senior people might have to take crippling pay cuts or move to England or Germany or USA.

And so where is the concern for the employees of Super Aguri and the other teams that have fallen by the wayside? Or is it only the Italians that get your sympathy? pathetic

As if Ferrari couldnt move the redundant employees to other projects, a Lemans attempt for instance...when they actually make it possible for a gas engine to be competitive.