A post EV era

[Greg Locock]

On the back of that success story the politicians decided to ban all coal exports from Australialand. So Chinaland got its coal from Indonesialand, which is not as good quality, and so CO2 emissions went up again and Australialand lost another industry.

The Greens looked around and admired their work.

[johnny comelately]

On the back of that success story the politicians decided to ban all coal exports from Australialand. So Chinaland got its coal from Indonesialand, which is not as good quality, and so CO2 emissions went up again and Australialand lost another industry.

The Greens looked around and admired their work.

Very good

[Just_a_fan]

But if everyone on board went along with it...

Obviously they didn't or there wouldn't be political discourse as we've known it; however sidelined it may have been. Generally pro-national or pro-domestic types, whatever you would call them, non-economically-suicidal perhaps, were framed as isolationists or xenophobic (lol) for not wanting native industries to compete against foreign slave labor forces. Back to the claim I'm trying to get your defense of:

They are as accountable as everyone that bought the goods...

Who deserves greater blame, the junkie or the drug dealer? What if the dealer is older or more wily? What if the addict is a child? Same for sub-prime mortgages; blame the seller or the financially inept buyer? It's a point about consent and modern governance. Deceivers ruling the deceived, with the deceived continually receiving the blame for the blowback of all the deceivers' actions. Time and again this is the defining characteristic of modern governance; don't forget we're in the era of information, psychology, psychological warfare (intel agencies w/o oversight), propaganda, and advertising.

You keep wanting to place blame rather than take action. It's no good shouting at the helmsman when you should be getting in a lifeboat.

[DChemTech]

On the back of that success story the politicians decided to ban all coal exports from Australialand. So Chinaland got its coal from Indonesialand, which is not as good quality, and so CO2 emissions went up again and Australialand lost another industry.

The Greens looked around and admired their work.

I agree that this whole aluminium affair is not too bright; unless a process causes immediate local pollution problems that can only be solved by moving, the solution should focus on fixing the problem locally rather than displacing it (edit: but as J_A_F mentions, if the company disagrees with the conditions for 'fixing the problem locally' and decides to move on those grounds, it may not be the fault of those prescribing the conditions)

However, if you keep resources in the ground that may have at least some positive effect, even if it is just raising the price a bit which may nudge some producers to consider alternatives. So on keeping the coal in the ground, I think that's not a bad decision necesarrily, even if on short term it displaces coal production to other locations.

[Just_a_fan]

Once upon a time a mythical country called Australialand had high CO2 emissions, and in particular made aluminium pots out of locally acquired coal and bauxite. Oh the emissions were high. Sadness was in the people of the land (some of them anyway).

The politicians decreed that henceforth they would get rid of the nasty aluminium pots and pans business, thereby reducing the CO2 emissions.

So instead Chinaland (a country of low CO2 emissions per capita) bought the coal and bauxite from Australialand, and burned the coal, and made aluminium, and made pots, which they then sold back to Australialand's unemployed people.

So, net result is more CO2 is emitted, and Australialand has lost an industry. But Austrialand's per capita CO2 emissions had reduced.

The Greens saw the results of their policies and declared that it was good. There was much rejoicing by the people of the land (well, some of them).

Was it all the fault of "the Greens" or was some of it the fault of companies seeing a cheaper place to make their goods. Aussies probably want more money and a safer working environment than the people in Chinaland are allowed to enjoy.

[Andres125sx]

Looks like some people around here think pointing fingers is the solution now... The boat is sinking, and some people is stating they will not take water out because they didn´t make any hole.

Great, the boat is done and we all are doomed then. Applause to your great colaborative mood, it will be very usefull in the deep of the ocean


Curious how some people only account for their own mistakes, while they take advantage of others succeeds. Living in society means you can take advantage of many things you didn´t achieve yourself, but also that you must respect some rules, and account for mistakes you didn´t do yourself either.

Taking advantage of the goods of society, while washing your hands with the problems, is... well, how would you call it? Egocentric? Cheeky? Help me choose the correct term, my english is not great

[vorticism]

I think Greg has a compelling children's book on his hands; too bad the disinformation ministry would probably not allow its distribution. Maybe they can just put tobacco style warning stickers on it; 'Warning: this picture book has not been fact checked.'

You keep wanting to place blame rather than take action. It's no good shouting at the helmsman when you should be getting in a lifeboat.

Again, fabricating my intentions. Replace blame with justice. We're making sure the helmsman doesn't get a place on the lifeboats, because they'll probably sink those, too.

Was it all the fault of "the Greens" or was some of it the fault of companies seeing a cheaper place to make their goods. Aussies probably want more money and a safer working environment than the people in Chinaland are allowed to enjoy.

Greens play the 'useful idiots' in this context providing a pretext or cover story for capital flight. Same as now.

[Just_a_fan]

I think Greg has a compelling children's book on his hands; too bad the disinformation ministry would probably not allow its distribution. Maybe they can just put tobacco style warning stickers on it; 'Warning: this picture book has not been fact checked.'

You keep wanting to place blame rather than take action. It's no good shouting at the helmsman when you should be getting in a lifeboat.

Again, fabricating my intentions. Replace blame with justice. We're making sure the helmsman doesn't get a place on the lifeboats, because they'll probably sink those, too.

Was it all the fault of "the Greens" or was some of it the fault of companies seeing a cheaper place to make their goods. Aussies probably want more money and a safer working environment than the people in Chinaland are allowed to enjoy.

Greens play the 'useful idiots' in this context providing a pretext or cover story for capital flight. Same as now.

No point preventing the helmsman getting on the lifeboat if you also go down with the ship...

[vorticism]

Replace blame with justice. We're making sure the helmsman doesn't get a place on the lifeboats, because they'll probably sink those, too.

No point preventing the helmsman getting on the lifeboat if you also go down with the ship...

It wouldn't require the entire population of the ship to constrain one captain while the ship is being either repaired or disembarked. Within the metaphor you introduced, I'm saying keep the failed captains off of the lifeboats not only as justice but also to prevent them from attempting to steer another vessel again. Tie this back in with my previous posts. It's a general theme of holding those in positions of power and influence to account -- this going back a few pages now. I've never said to do only this and nothing else.

[Cold Fussion]

Was it all the fault of "the Greens" or was some of it the fault of companies seeing a cheaper place to make their goods. Aussies probably want more money and a safer working environment than the people in Chinaland are allowed to enjoy.

The answer as to which party was in power when the deal to sell China coal, may in fact shock you. Spoiler: It wasn't the Green Party (A minority party with little effective power, especially when the deal was made).

[johnny comelately]

Further to the natural worlds contribution to our doom...
A rock doctor said that the molten lava is a result of an ongoing nuclear reaction
Warning on the context of the word recent

[Big Tea]

Here is a technology I had not heard anything of, Cryo?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alWZ7GtVNHo

This does seem to have something going for it, but I'm not sure about transferability to vehicles.

Some parts do seem a little 'sketchy' though

[Greg Locock]

Andres, indeed, the logical solution is to 'assign' the CO2 'cost' to the end user of the products. Hence the CO2 created in the manufacture of all your wind turbines and solar panels should contribute to the CO2 footprint of the countries where they are installed.

This mechanism has a (or at least one) slight problem, it encourages the use of cheaper wetter less efficient coal in China because the CO2 cost of doing so would end up wherever the panels are installed.At present countries are willing to pay a bit more for Australian coal because it gives them a cheap quick CO2 reduction.

[Fulcrum]

As it relates. In California they would gaslight the constituency with save-water propaganda despite residential in home use accounting for 1-2% of water consumption, the balance being the obvious sectors of manufacturing, business, and agriculture. There was a period when people were so gaslit that restaurants would no longer serve tap water for free. Plastic grocery bags in some cities are taxes .1-.25 $ over a trivial amount of plastic--it is a plain tax revenue grab.
Paper straws meme was forced to similar aims; plastic straws represent perhaps .00005 - .0000005 % of global petrochemical use. Armchair estimate.

The more important question as it relates to this thread: What is the aim of a culture or politburo who behaves in this way? Lying, obfuscating, deceiving, or at least, neurotic overreaction.

Control.

Or to apply some marketing spin, compliance.

Of maybe, just maybe, giving us a fighting chance at a future where we keep at least a decent chunk of our society intact, instead of one where everyone scrambles to latch on to their 'rightful excesses'al and many lose out in the process?

Sure, not all measures will be effective and some may be counterproductive. I have strong doubts whether the increased energy usage for paper cup production weighs up to the avoided plastic waste and there are many more such examples. But perhaps such things are more due to a shortage of engineers and quantative skillsets in politics and legislation, that due to some conspiratorial population control scheme.

I was commenting more on the methods of communication, as opposed to the intended outcomes.

[johnny comelately]

A needed perspective