2022 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 09 - 11

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Carlos sainz has accumulated 20grid place penalties, in excess of the 15grid positions to start from the back, so is required to start from the back of the grid. (FIA doc.23 from Monza)

the FIA was clear about that in exactly that statement:

It is important to note that the ‘start the race from the back of the starting grid’ penalty [that] is fully embedded in Article 28 was specifically introduced in response to nonsensically high grid penalties from PU changes. [It] has never been used to accumulate grid penalties imposed from other articles of the regulations.” – the FIA added.

the gearbox penalty is independent from that.

edit: best example is Bottas in Spa, by the way, who had a +15 engine penalty and a +10 gearbox penalty. It did not result in a start from the back.

[chrisc90]

Carlos sainz has accumulated 20grid place penalties, in excess of the 15grid positions to start from the back, so is required to start from the back of the grid. (FIA doc.23 from Monza)

the FIA was clear about that in exactly that statement:

It is important to note that the ‘start the race from the back of the starting grid’ penalty [that] is fully embedded in Article 28 was specifically introduced in response to nonsensically high grid penalties from PU changes. [It] has never been used to accumulate grid penalties imposed from other articles of the regulations.” – the FIA added.

the gearbox penalty is independent from that.

The gearbox penalty isnt independant of it at all. You could take as many penalty documents as you want, penalty grid drops accumulate across the competition and will be applied as a cumulative total for working out the grid. Sainz could take 3x 5 place drop and get 1 yellow flag infringement (for example) which is a 18 place drop, however the accumulation of grid drops will take him over the 15 allowed and will automatically go to a back of the grid penalty.

[organic]

Carlos sainz has accumulated 20grid place penalties, in excess of the 15grid positions to start from the back, so is required to start from the back of the grid. (FIA doc.23 from Monza)

the FIA was clear about that in exactly that statement:

It is important to note that the ‘start the race from the back of the starting grid’ penalty [that] is fully embedded in Article 28 was specifically introduced in response to nonsensically high grid penalties from PU changes. [It] has never been used to accumulate grid penalties imposed from other articles of the regulations.” – the FIA added.

the gearbox penalty is independent from that.

The gearbox penalty isnt independant of it at all. You could take as many penalty documents as you want, penalty grid drops accumulate across the competition and will be applied as a cumulative total for working out the grid. Sainz could take 3x 5 place drop and get 1 yellow flag infringement (for example) which is a 18 place drop, however the accumulation of grid drops will take him over the 15 allowed and will automatically go to a back of the grid penalty.

The >15 rule is relevant only to engine penalties, not gearbox/procedural infringements etc. or total penalties accumulated.

3x5 grid drops from engine penalties and a 3-place yellow flag infringement would be an 18-place grid drop, not back of the grid.

[chrisc90]

Either way.....Doc 23 from this weekend says Carlos has to start from the back of the grid. 10 place drop from document 15 (not online?) and the extra he took in document 23.

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Either way.....Doc 23 from this weekend says Carlos has to start from the back of the grid. 10 place drop from document 15 (not online?) and the extra he took in document 23.

The initial document is hidden behind. To find those you need to delete the "_0" at the end of the link.

And there is no doubt about him starting from the back of the grid, of course, but the +10 still exists. Tsunoda also got another +3 yesterday although he starts from the back anyway.

[chrisc90]

Either way.....Doc 23 from this weekend says Carlos has to start from the back of the grid. 10 place drop from document 15 (not online?) and the extra he took in document 23.

The initial document is hidden behind. To find those you need to delete the "_0" at the end of the link.

And there is no doubt about him starting from the back of the grid, of course, but the +10 still exists. Tsunoda also got another +3 yesterday although he starts from the back anyway.

So effectively Sainz has a back of the grid plus 10 (gearbox) penalty? Yuki has a back of the grid +3 penalty (yellow flags), so Sainz P20, Yuki P19 then back of grid penalties from there upwards?

I didnt realise initially the gearbox penalties would be applied afterwards, however that isnt clear in the sporting regs, so will be interesting to see how they apply that come release of the final starting grid.

Infact no, thats wrong. the +10 would be applied first, the same as Yuki's yellow flags so would drop 10 places and 3 respectively. Then the back of the grid. So that grid I suggested is wrong. it is still possible for Sainz and Yuki to start ahead of lewis for example.

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Either way.....Doc 23 from this weekend says Carlos has to start from the back of the grid. 10 place drop from document 15 (not online?) and the extra he took in document 23.

The initial document is hidden behind. To find those you need to delete the "_0" at the end of the link.

And there is no doubt about him starting from the back of the grid, of course, but the +10 still exists. Tsunoda also got another +3 yesterday although he starts from the back anyway.

So effectively Sainz has a back of the grid plus 10 (gearbox) penalty? Yuki has a back of the grid +3 penalty (yellow flags), so Sainz P20, Yuki P19 then back of grid penalties from there upwards?

I didnt realise initially the gearbox penalties would be applied afterwards, however that isnt clear in the sporting regs, so will be interesting to see how they apply that come release of the final starting grid.

to my understanding, they are not applied afterwards, but first. And Yuki also has a +10 or sth like that from the accumulated reprimands, btw.

So if they qualify like this

5. SAI
6. HAM
7. TSU

Sainz moves to 15th, Tsunoda to 20th, Hamilton to 5th - and they then get ranked in that order at the back of the grid

[chrisc90]

Yeah, looks like your right with that one. I forgot Yuki's reprimand penalties too. There would be a small chance if sainz qualifies 1st and lewis P16 or lower Sainz would get the jump on him.

Its a complicated one to look at and you need the exact penalties and grid to work it out properly. But yeah, I imagine Yuki will be drop dead last this time round.

[organic]

[BlueCheetah66]

If there was a race I wanted Latifi to beat a teammate its this one

[RZS10]

To my understanding all the gearbox or sporting penalties do not matter at all for 'back of the grid' starters,
chrisc90 you did miss Sainz getting another +5 which put him in that position, it's not because of the gearbox pen - but i see this has been cleared up whilst i was typing this

i'm positive that what i wrote here was correct viewtopic.php?p=1087972#p1087972

Here's (again) the regs:
42.3 The Grid

a) [... normal quali positions...]
b) [... for those without a time set ...]

c) Once the grid has been established [...] grid position penalties will be applied to the drivers in question. [NOT BOTG]

i) The driver with the higher classification from the qualifying practice session will have precedence.

d) Once the grid has been established in accordance with Article 42.3a), 42.3b) and 42.3c), grid penalties for any driver required to start the race from the back of the grid after incurring a penalty under Article 28.3 will be applied.

i) If more than one (1) driver is required to start the race from the back of the grid they will be arranged in qualifying order.

Verstappen, Perez and Bottas will be in their quali position + penalty,
Sainz Hamilton and Tsunoda will be at the back of the grid, fighting for 18, 19, 20 - Yuki could even start ahead of those two despite having +13 via sporting penalties

They do not apply the penalties and then put them at the back of the grid and PU penalties are completely independent from the other ones.

[organic]

Sergio's back to oscillating DRS why does this keep happening

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To my understanding all the gearbox or sporting penalties do not matter at all for 'back of the grid' starters

checking the starting positions in Spa again, you seem to be right, yeah. Leclerc started ahead of Ocon although he had an additional gearbox penalty, and Ocon not (both had back-of-the-grid engine penalties).

[chrisc90]

Nice of George to block Max's fast lap.

[organic]

that was close.. wow