2022 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, Oct 07 - 09

[chrisc90]

I can't believe I say this but it feels like it has rained too much and too often this season. Race organisers have killed wet sessions

Monaco
Singapore
Japan?

Cant think of any other races that have been affected by rain (or at least the start where racing was delayed)

[RZS10]

With regards to the Max/Lando incident ...

The regulations have 37.5 for impeding in practice sessions, so it's a different rule altogether and simply can't be the decisions they refer to even when a lot of drivers were reprimanded for it this season.

In general 33.4 is for driving unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which endangers others, usually it's the "slowly" part that gets them with a bit of endangerment sprinkled in but here the last two are the possible candidates, probably with a focus on the erratic part, as Norris wasn't as much impeded (not on a hot lap) as he was endangered by Verstappen moving across into his path.

Norris wasn't on a flyer so the situation was different to let's say Ricciardo impeding Ocon on his lap in Saudi (+3) which was the only such incident this year from what i can tell at a quick glance on the docs.

It's rare to have that speed delta without one driver on a fast lap (where it's mostly just a driver dawdling around on the racing line with a failure to give them their warnings via radio), all this makes this situation a bit unique i'd say, which makes it a bit weird that the doc mentions that all previous breaches of that nature were just reprimands - so i wonder what they used to qualify it as "similar" and which previous instances they refer to.

As Sieper pointed out, one would probably have to go back to previous seasons, maybe even several - unless they equate this to the free practice incidents as neither was on a fast lap.

In the end the reprimand is probably the right choice, even if Max couldn't have complained about a +3 ... i still don't quite get the excuse they used, as it looked like a typical tyre warming burnout, only with another car approaching.

[chrisc90]

As usual, theres always plenty of incidents to go back on from the archives.

This is a carbon copy of what happened with Max/Lando today:
(Click to watch in Youtube)


Reprimand the right outcome, id half expect Norris got a bit of a speaking to in the stewards room aswell.

[chrisc90]

Should be a interesting race tomorrow.

I haven't followed closely what wing levels some teams have on their cars, but from comments im hearing Ferrari have gone for a much lower rear wing. I wonder if it does rain tomorrow then they will struggle with the tyres.
Mercedes seem to be well down on the pace today. Looking at the telemetry they seem a consistent 10kmph slower on the middle and end of the straights. Even compared to Alonso, Lewis' Mercedes is 7-8kmh down, so come race day it might be VERY hard for them to get overtakes in. This is likely down to a higher downforce RW, which could be a decent gamble should it be raining tomorrow.

How this would compare to the Red Bull setup in the wet is a question for the more experienced people.

[Juzh]

some laps

ver p1 1.29.304 - fast on straights even in non-drs zones where I think their advantage is bigger now than in some previous races, nimble in some corners, clearly lacks outright downforce of the ferrari. Still looks to be understeering in some corners.
https://streamable.com/6g7q6c


lec p2 1.29.314 - I think a new speed record in denger1 at 268 km/h, unless im forgetting something
https://streamable.com/08xsb1


oco p5 1.30.165 - looks pretty well balanced, can hug apex in spoon, similar to hamilton and unlike verstappen whos' actually slowest of the bunch
https://streamable.com/d77723


ham p6 1.30.261 - snail slow on straights, otherwise pretty good. Hamilton's weakness in degner1 continues to this day. he's just not carrying any speed, 17 kmh slower than leclerc. Got beat by bottas in this particular corner year after year also.
https://streamable.com/xrztzg

[RZS10]

As usual, theres always plenty of incidents to go back on from the archives.

This is a carbon copy of what happened with Max/Lando today [...]

Good find.

So yea ... multiple years back ...

"Carbon copy" is a bit of a stretch though as there's a few key differences like being or not being aware of the incoming driver, trying to make room by getting off the racing line vs doing a burnout to heat tyres into the path of the other driver on the racing line and finally being or not being in full control of the car, where the latter was the case for Max, at least according to the stewards (imho he was in full control).

So it really just fits a very broad or simplistic definition of "similar" and they probably say "neither car on fast lap = reprimand"
___

some laps
[...]
ham p6 1.30.261 - snail slow on straights, otherwise pretty good. Hamilton's weakness in degner1 continues to this day. he's just not carrying any speed, 17 kmh slower than leclerc. Got beat by bottas in this particular corner year after year also.

Good stuff ... just out of curiosity, how did he compare to George in T8?

[Gillian]

The Ver/Nor incident boils down to intent. Did Verstappen really loose control or was he intentionally blocking Norris? Is there any reason to dispute his own claim about losing control? What was Norris' intent to accelerate suddenly?

I personally fail to see any advantage to be gained for either driver in this situation other than gaining track position. Norris sees a slow Verstappen and warming up and gets impatient so decides to overtake. Verstappen doesn't expect that and wants to speed up to stay in front and then loses control. Reprimand seems fine then imo...

[Zynerji]

The Ver/Nor incident boils down to intent. Did Verstappen really loose control or was he intentionally blocking Norris? Is there any reason to dispute his own claim about losing control? What was Norris' intent to accelerate suddenly?

I personally fail to see any advantage to be gained for either driver in this situation other than gaining track position. Norris sees a slow Verstappen and warming up and gets impatient so decides to overtake. Verstappen doesn't expect that and wants to speed up to stay in front and then loses control. Reprimand seems fine then imo...

From my watching, it looked like Max was slower than Lando, so Lando backed off. Then Max started doing tyre prep on the next straight as Lando decided to overtake. Thus leading to Lando taking avoiding action on the grass.

I've always said this, much to the wrath of these forums, but the overtaking car has more responsibility than the overtaken car to avoid colissions. They have a better view of what is going on, as well as they are the ones that make the crucial decision on how the attempt is made. NOT weaving, blocking or leaving a cars width is really the only responsibility of the lead driver.

[Tvetovnato]

The Ver/Nor incident boils down to intent. Did Verstappen really loose control or was he intentionally blocking Norris? Is there any reason to dispute his own claim about losing control? What was Norris' intent to accelerate suddenly?

I personally fail to see any advantage to be gained for either driver in this situation other than gaining track position. Norris sees a slow Verstappen and warming up and gets impatient so decides to overtake. Verstappen doesn't expect that and wants to speed up to stay in front and then loses control. Reprimand seems fine then imo...

I don’t get the ”intent” discussion though. It’s never anyones intent to have a racing incident either, but they still are sometimes penalized because a driver did not have control of his car and caused harm to another driver. Same thing here. Verstappen lost control which put another driver in danger. So the intent part can be left out IMO.

But with that said, a reprimand is fine since it was no contact I guess.

[Chuckjr]

WTH merc losing half a second on S3.......

Boat anchor aero.

[Big Tea]

The Ver/Nor incident boils down to intent. Did Verstappen really loose control or was he intentionally blocking Norris? Is there any reason to dispute his own claim about losing control? What was Norris' intent to accelerate suddenly?

I personally fail to see any advantage to be gained for either driver in this situation other than gaining track position. Norris sees a slow Verstappen and warming up and gets impatient so decides to overtake. Verstappen doesn't expect that and wants to speed up to stay in front and then loses control. Reprimand seems fine then imo...

I don’t get the ”intent” discussion though. It’s never anyones intent to have a racing incident either, but they still are sometimes penalized because a driver did not have control of his car and caused harm to another driver. Same thing here. Verstappen lost control which put another driver in danger. So the intent part can be left out IMO.

But with that said, a reprimand is fine since it was no contact I guess.

Yeh, they both intended to get the best they possibly could out of their car on the next lap. Anything else is random, not intentional. I see it as the warmup equivalent of a racing incident, but then again, I do with most things.
They are there to race not 'oneupman' each other (usually )

[Sieper]

With intent you just never know. You will forever be unable to prove that. That’s why it is perhaps better to not speak about it. Having said that Imho Max tried to speed up and not have Lando in front of him on purpose. So there was intent imho. But I am just guessing at that.

What I don’t understand is both Mclaren and redbull apparently (different tire prep) wanted to start their laps at the same time. Twice! Happened on the second hotlap too. That just seems dumb to me. By both teams. There was no need for this to even be a thing.

[Big Tea]

With intent you just never know. You will forever be unable to prove that. That’s why it is perhaps better to not speak about it. Having said that Imho Max tried to speed up and not have Lando in front of him on purpose. So there was intent imho. But I am just guessing at that.

What I don’t understand is both Mclaren and redbull apparently (different tire prep) wanted to start their laps at the same time. Twice! Happened on the second hotlap too. That just seems dumb to me. By both teams. There was no need for this to even be a thing.

Due to the tyre life being so short, they probably both know aprox where to start 'serious' prep without killing the tyre before the end of the qualli lap, and it is in slightly different places.

[Chuckjr]

God these race threads standards are being lowered to a seriously crap level. Might leave this forum at this rate. People need to have a word with themselves as the amount of bile being produced is beyond words.

If you think that was done intentionally then I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Engineer didn’t tell him about Lando as they’re both on an outlap and they’ve been holding station up until this point. If I was lead driver getting round to start quali lap I’d be more concerned with getting my equipment in the perfect window then continuously looking in my mirrors when you know there are nil cars on a quali lap. Still a reprimand is fine here as he shouldn’t lose the car warming up the tires (being in control of the car at all times)

Calm down Francis. Stop taking yourself so seriously. Race threads are not held to the same technical profundity as the car threads so common people who are not rocket scientists, engine building specialists, or expert aerodynamicists can also participate. I enjoy the race threads especially because of this. Stay in highly technical forums if you have no time for more tongue and cheek interaction.

[Zynerji]

WTH merc losing half a second on S3.......

Boat anchor aero.

2023 Merc will look like a 2022 RedBull, for sure...