2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[Wil992]

You fail to understand what I'm pointing out here. The submission Red Bull made in March were under the cost-cap, since then the FIA declared that there was a procedural breach and overspend. The persons moving from team to team would have NO knowledge of what the FIA is reviewing and how they are reviewing it. You're just trying to downplay the fact that Wolff has inside information from the FIA, be it about overspend or consideration to allow a 2nd stay that is still illegal according to the technical regulations. Wolff leveraged that information to try and rally Red Bull's direct competitors and went on a defame campaign in the media. Get my drift?

This isn’t correct.
Let’s take a random example to illustrate the point.
Cost cap 140 mill, some things count, some don’t.
Team 1 provides paddock food etc to corporate clients, says it’s marketing and therefore not counted in the cap.
So it goes on the submission, but in the not counted column.
Employee moves from team 1 to team 2.
In team 2’s submission, the paddock food is included in the does count column, because team members also eat it, so it’s part of general running costs.
So, this fictional employee would know all about the discrepancy without any additional or inside knowledge, he could easily tell his new colleagues how team 1 had submitted, suddenly everyone knows team 1 is likely to be outside the cap, because they’ve excluded things they should have included. Or, put another way, they have made a procedural error as well as an overspend.
It’s really not hard to se how this could happen, with no need to resort to conspiracies.

[mendis]

Just got one question, so now its proven its just a minor breach so what will be the punishment that RB will be looking at? Less tunnel time etc or just some financial penalty.

Procedural Breaches can result in Financial Penalties and/or Minor Sporting Penalties (in case of aggravating factors) as detailed in the Financial Regulation.

Minor Overspend breach (<5% Cost Cap) can result in Financial Penalties and/or Minor Sporting Penalties.

Only a Material Overspend breach (>5% Cost Cap) if confirmed before the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel will result in a mandatory Constructors’ Championship points deductions and can result in additional Financial Penalties and/or Material Sporting Penalties.

[Alvareth]

Red Bull overspent on the budget cap. Since it is a minor breach, they get a settlement. Waiting now on the settlement agreement. Anyway it is bad publicity. Just wonder who leaked…

[dans79]

How many unhappy folks from finance teams would be roaming around in a paddock to spill the beans? TBH, I work for a corporate with multi million transactions and have no clue about what the expenditures are and where they are spending, unless I see a quarterly financial report being made public.

Doesn't have to be a finance person. Developers, dba's, IT people, all have far more access than your average employee thinks they do. I'm my companies senior most system engineer, and I regularly freak out directors and vps of various departments, because I know far more than they think I should. They never seem to grasp the fact that since i wrote some of the systems I have and will always have intimate details of how they work!

[Shakeman]

It would not surprise me one iota if we're in the same place next year.

[e30ernest]

I'm amused at the concern about the leak. IMO whoever leaked the info (if there is one who leaked it) should be commended like a good whistle-blower.

[rogazilla]

deflecting but should seriously be looked at inside FIA: If this can be leaked, what other information FIA has could also be leaked?

On the RBR statement, they believe they submitted the book under the cap, now they go and argue with FIA line by line. My speculation: We won't see the result until sometime between end of season and testing start for 2023.

[Wil992]

How many unhappy folks from finance teams would be roaming around in a paddock to spill the beans? TBH, I work for a corporate with multi million transactions and have no clue about what the expenditures are and where they are spending, unless I see a quarterly financial report being made public.

Doesn't have to be a finance person. Developers, dba's, IT people, all have far more access than your average employee thinks they do. I'm my companies senior most system engineer, and I regularly freak out directors and vps of various departments, because I know far more than they think I should. They never seem to grasp the fact that since i wrote some of the systems I have and will always have intimate details of how they work!

Same, I’ve worked for many large consultancy companies on large projects, and have seen more of their customers data than they probably imagine.

[mendis]

How many unhappy folks from finance teams would be roaming around in a paddock to spill the beans? TBH, I work for a corporate with multi million transactions and have no clue about what the expenditures are and where they are spending, unless I see a quarterly financial report being made public.

Doesn't have to be a finance person. Developers, dba's, IT people, all have far more access than your average employee thinks they do. I'm my companies senior most system engineer, and I regularly freak out directors and vps of various departments, because I know far more than they think I should. They never seem to grasp the fact that since i wrote some of the systems I have and will always have intimate details of how they work!

I guarantee you, other than individuals from Finance and Legal, nobody would understand anything around financing standards, reports (tons of them) or expense management. Until the full balance sheet is in front of a Qualified Accountant, you have no clue if something is up or down. Even the personnel within Finance who are not qualified in auditing, cannot understand what's white and what's black. I already mentioned a few times, it's an extremely complex world of numbers. Red Bull even now are maintaining they didn't overspend, so it's hard to believe a developer, DBA or an IT person would know this. Heck, they wouldn't even properly complete ethics, harrassment and compliance trainings allocated to them on time, forget about financial understanding.

[rogazilla]

I'm amused at the concern about the leak. IMO whoever leaked the info (if there is one who leaked it) should be commended like a good whistle-blower.

I am not sure this is 'whistle blowing'. Whistle blowing imply that someone reported someone doing something wrong. This is the officiating being called out before the official announcement. I would be concerned with if the book detail is leaked? Granted F1 personnel package is probably pretty well known around such small community, but I wouldn't want my competitor to know what I offer my engineers and lure them away.

FIA also has all the technical details of cars, PU and make you wonder about the leak right?

[Hammerfist]

Or it could just be that all nine other teams know exactly what it cost to run a Formula One team. I know how much upgrades cost, and transportation costs, and catering costs, and everything else.

Yep, actually before the rumor came out, Binotto was questioning Redbull's massive upgrades earlier this year.
The FIA really needs to stamp down and issue a hefty championship penalty even if this is a "minor breach". If they don't, then noone in their right mind on the paddock is going to respect these rules.

Remember rules are rules. When Max was taken out in Silverstone, the penalty was enforced based on rules, not the impact for the competitor. Rules can't be changed on the fly to punish someone for an offence covered in rules.

You guys won't ever get over Silverstone, which imho was mostly Max's fault. But let's stop there please and that's not the point anyway.
Track incidents are often not black and white.
Cost cap rules should be black and white and there is no room for any shade of gray.
Redbull needs to be punished. The FIA will feel immense pressure from fans and the media to issue a significant penalty. That is outright cheating. Throw the book at them.

[chrisc90]

deflecting but should seriously be looked at inside FIA: If this can be leaked, what other information FIA has could also be leaked?

On the RBR statement, they believe they submitted the book under the cap, now they go and argue with FIA line by line. My speculation: We won't see the result until sometime between end of season and testing start for 2023.

Yeah, very likely. I imagine RB will sit down with the FIA, a copy of the regs book beside them and RB will ask the FIA for clarification on exactly which areas were different between the RB interpretation of the rules and that of the FIA. They then discuss, likely get some very savvy legal people in to interpret the wordings in the books and the whole process drags on.

RB will know exactly where the reports will conflict, especially if they submitted a report that's under the cost cap (any team would be stupid not to really), so I imagine the FIA will be talking with the team over the next few days, if they haven't already, on the areas they didn't agree with.


I mean if this does fall down to catering for example, what's stopping say Oracle, ByBit etc etc providing the food and drinks as part of their sponsorship deal? If a external sponsor is responsible for catering, then the cost cant be seen as a outgoing from the RB budget.

[chrisc90]

Yep, actually before the rumor came out, Binotto was questioning Redbull's massive upgrades earlier this year.
The FIA really needs to stamp down and issue a hefty championship penalty even if this is a "minor breach". If they don't, then noone in their right mind on the paddock is going to respect these rules.

Remember rules are rules. When Max was taken out in Silverstone, the penalty was enforced based on rules, not the impact for the competitor. Rules can't be changed on the fly to punish someone for an offence covered in rules.

You guys won't ever get over Silverstone, which imho was mostly Max's fault. But let's stop there please and that's not the point anyway.
Track incidents are often not black and white.
Cost cap rules should be black and white and there is no room for any shade of gray.
Redbull needs to be punished. The FIA will feel immense pressure from fans and the media to issue a significant penalty. That is outright cheating. Throw the book at them.

Only problem is that having a scalable level of sanctions, technically doesn't make it black and white. This is different to things like technical regulations on the car. For example Lewis' wing in Brazil, or Sebs low fuel. Those 'faults' are clearly outlined in terms of punishment. These financial regs are on a scaling penalty system.

A bit like speeding. Go 2-4mph over in a 30mph limit, you might get an awareness course if your first offence, 5-7mph over you get 3 points, over 38mph to 45mph you get 6 points, over 45mph you get a ban/disqualification.

[mendis]

Yep, actually before the rumor came out, Binotto was questioning Redbull's massive upgrades earlier this year.
The FIA really needs to stamp down and issue a hefty championship penalty even if this is a "minor breach". If they don't, then noone in their right mind on the paddock is going to respect these rules.

Remember rules are rules. When Max was taken out in Silverstone, the penalty was enforced based on rules, not the impact for the competitor. Rules can't be changed on the fly to punish someone for an offence covered in rules.

You guys won't ever get over Silverstone, which imho was mostly Max's fault. But let's stop there please and that's not the point anyway.
Track incidents are often not black and white.
Cost cap rules should be black and white and there is no room for any shade of gray.
Redbull needs to be punished. The FIA will feel immense pressure from fans and the media to issue a significant penalty. That is outright cheating. Throw the book at them.

Look, it's not a perfect world for FIA. They have clearly mentioned, they didn't do any "investigation" and have taken the submissions on the face of it and have found incorrectness in numbers as per how they have read and treated it. There were rumors that they had "Forensic Accountants" having done investigation, which is false. It means, FIA should be prepared to go for multiple rounds of re-auditing of the submissions if RB continues to claim their position. If it's just a financial penalty, RB would take it and go home. If FIA uses a strong hand to hand elimination from WDC/WCC, then this is going to go out in courts and considering how badly FIA writes rules, they would be shredded by Legal experts in finance that RB is going to hire and walk out of the court with their a**es kicked. You know most court cases go through out of court settlements. So if FIA tries to go for higher punishment, RB will fight it back in court. Regardless of what a fan emotion is, FIA would most likely slap a financial penalty and close the case.

[codetower]

My prediction: A fine, say 10-20 million, and a 200 point dock in constructor points for last year and this year. FIA says "we punished" in order to save face, but not severely enough to change any outcome. RB still 2nd last year, and with this year being already 165 points ahead, and a fast car, they could realistically still win it this year.