2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[chrisc90]

And you don't think that makes Christian Horner a liar?

How?

He said the reports were false.
He claimed defamation of character.
He threatened legal action.

Are you intentionally ignoring reality here?

I mean technically at that moment in time there was nothing to base the reports on. Rumours, thats it.

From looking at the FIA statement, they haven't investigated any of the teams yet either.

[Quantum]

How?

He said the reports were false.
He claimed defamation of character.
He threatened legal action.

Are you intentionally ignoring reality here?

I mean technically at that moment in time there was nothing to base the reports on. Rumours, thats it.

From looking at the FIA statement, they haven't investigated any of the teams yet either.

They had receipts(pun) on this rule breaking way before and Horner would know that.
Gazetto wouldn't know before RB and there were issues in the lead up to the story breaking.

2 teams separate of the other both said it was pretty much an open secret that one team was flouting the rules.
And both had no idea how the developments could come at the rate they did.

So to suggest Horner was in a bubble independent of what the FIA were doing with his very own team is for me at least, a real stretch.

[mendis]

And you don't think that makes Christian Horner a liar?

How?

He said the reports were false.
He claimed defamation of character.
He threatened legal action.

Are you intentionally ignoring reality here?

He didn't say anything that you have mentioned there in the video that you quoted.

[KeiKo403]

I do wonder what the penalty will be, even if it’s a massive fine c. $100M then that doesn’t matter to RB, they was spending that amount plus the budget cap amount in 2020 and not winning a Championship.

I do hope it isn’t some constructors points deduction from last season also, that’s just another pointless penalty.
I do think it’s a procedural breach which has lead to a minor overspend breach, in that they’ve not counted catering and sick pay in the cost cap as opposed to spending more on those than they originally anticipated and allowed for.

If that’s right then it’s the entire budget for catering and sick pay that they’ve exceeded the cap by, assuming that they’ve maximised the cost cap throughout the other departments, if so I imagine that’s quite a large sum of money over.

[mendis]

I do wonder what the penalty will be, even if it’s a massive fine c. $100M then that doesn’t matter to RB, they was spending that amount plus the budget cap amount in 2020 and not winning a Championship.

I do hope it isn’t some constructors points deduction from last season also, that’s just another pointless penalty.
I do think it’s a procedural breach which has lead to a minor overspend breach, in that they’ve not counted catering and sick pay in the cost cap as opposed to spending more on those than they originally anticipated and allowed for.

If that’s right then it’s the entire budget for catering and sick pay that they’ve exceeded the cap by, assuming that they’ve maximised the cost cap throughout the other departments, if so I imagine that’s quite a large sum of money over.

Just to be clear, FIA hasn't given any areas of overspend, atleast not in their statement. So all these catering, sick pay are just rumors. Let's take the official word and believe it as a breach, a minor breach as they said, without worrying about where it was exceeded. So that would entitle us to debate the "breach".

[KeiKo403]

I do wonder what the penalty will be, even if it’s a massive fine c. $100M then that doesn’t matter to RB, they was spending that amount plus the budget cap amount in 2020 and not winning a Championship.

I do hope it isn’t some constructors points deduction from last season also, that’s just another pointless penalty.
I do think it’s a procedural breach which has lead to a minor overspend breach, in that they’ve not counted catering and sick pay in the cost cap as opposed to spending more on those than they originally anticipated and allowed for.

If that’s right then it’s the entire budget for catering and sick pay that they’ve exceeded the cap by, assuming that they’ve maximised the cost cap throughout the other departments, if so I imagine that’s quite a large sum of money over.

Just to be clear, FIA hasn't given any areas of overspend, atleast not in their statement. So all these catering, sick pay are just rumors. Let's take the official word and believe it as a breach, a minor breach as they said, without worrying about where it was exceeded. So that would entitle us to debate the "breach".

I guess there’s nothing more anyone can add here then. FIA confirmed the breach, rumour confirmed. No more rumours please, mod may as well lock the thread…

[Quantum]

How?

He said the reports were false.
He claimed defamation of character.
He threatened legal action.

Are you intentionally ignoring reality here?

He didn't say anything that you have mentioned there in the video that you quoted.

Ok Mendis, are you saying he didn't say those words?
Or just in that particular video?

[LM10]

It would not surprise me one iota if we're in the same place next year.

Very likely. If they think that overspending is a possibility for them in 2021, they’ll think the same in 2022.

Staying under the cost cap in 2022 is much harder than it was in 2021. And RedBull seemed to have had no problems heavily upgrading their car until now.

[Stu]

Well, the results are in & those named in the rumours are the ones that have fallen foul of the auditing process. One looks as though they are preparing to appeal.

The punishment should be suitable to the extent of the breach, but if the findings are upheld at the appeal the punishment should be increased substantially.

Will we ever find out just how much the breach is (likely not); this would be short-sighted on the part of the FIA not to disclose publicly.

These budget rules need to be enforced, but the FIA also really needs to get a grip on information leakage.

How long does the current Concorde Agreement have left to run?

[mendis]

He said the reports were false.
He claimed defamation of character.
He threatened legal action.

Are you intentionally ignoring reality here?

He didn't say anything that you have mentioned there in the video that you quoted.

Ok Mendis, are you saying he didn't say those words?
Or just in that particular video?

I am saying, Horner/Red Bull have maintained their position. He didn't lie. If he/RB are maintaining their position of underspend, then he is right to feel hurt about others trying to malign Red Bull's reputation. I haven't see his statement, threatening legal action, unless you are quoting some other statement of his outside of that video.

I am primarily a Ferrari/Leclerc fan, who also happens to like RB/Max and Lewis. I hate Mercedes particularly for this year. This is a very intriguing case for me to keep debating on. I am looking at facts, rationality and where the lose ends are. Also how the rumours/hate has muddled it so distastefully.

[mendis]

Well, the results are in & those named in the rumours are the ones that have fallen foul of the auditing process. One looks as though they are preparing to appeal.

The punishment should be suitable to the extent of the breach, but if the findings are upheld at the appeal the punishment should be increased substantially.

Will we ever find out just how much the breach is (likely not); this would be short-sighted on the part of the FIA not to disclose publicly.

These budget rules need to be enforced, but the FIA also really needs to get a grip on information leakage.

How long does the current Concorde Agreement have left to run?

How does that make sense? If I believe I have done no wrong and use the available rights to go for appeal, will I be punished more? You expect someone to simply lie down and take the punishment and not attempt to take a stand where one believes he/she/they are innocent. No courts do that and if my appeal fails on legal grounds, only the penalty earlier awarded will be upheld.

[codetower]

I do wonder what the penalty will be, even if it’s a massive fine c. $100M then that doesn’t matter to RB, they was spending that amount plus the budget cap amount in 2020 and not winning a Championship.

I do hope it isn’t some constructors points deduction from last season also, that’s just another pointless penalty.
I do think it’s a procedural breach which has lead to a minor overspend breach, in that they’ve not counted catering and sick pay in the cost cap as opposed to spending more on those than they originally anticipated and allowed for.

If that’s right then it’s the entire budget for catering and sick pay that they’ve exceeded the cap by, assuming that they’ve maximised the cost cap throughout the other departments, if so I imagine that’s quite a large sum of money over.

In my opinion, it will end up being a sort of "pointless" penalty. After the backlash the FIA got last year for what some see as them altering the outcome of a championship, they seem VERY reluctant to alter the outcome of anything. Which is why I expect it to be financial, and points of some kind... not enough to change anything, but enough that it will set a precedent, and save face in that they can say that they took action.

Imagine if they DO take the championship away from last year, and/or this year. How will that affect sponsors, business partners, I imagine there will be plenty of lawsuits go around (we paid 10mil to sponsor a champion, we want 5mil of that back). Teams were awarded money, wind-tunnel time based on positions. Could Hamilton have lured MORE sponsorship money with an 8th world title... just the trickle down effect of changing outcomes could be more than the FIA want to deal with.

So, as I see it, they will make up the rules on a whim to try and please everyone.

[Alvareth]

Or Red Bull goes to Austin, saves the constructors title and sends everyone on vacation.

I was thinking that. Dont think it would go down well for Perez though. But they could just send 1 car there.

Teams are contractually obliged to attend races and are fined if they do not turn up to run both cars.

It was mentioned by Horner as a possibility in relationship to inflation issues: https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/26/red ... ay-rivals/

[Mogster]

I can only see a reduction in the 2023 cost cap, equivalent to the overspend, and further development penalties being enough to placate the other teams.

The FIA has to come down hard, otherwise the cost cap is finished. Incidentally it’s months since MPH over at The Race first hinted at paddock rumours of RBRs profligate spending and likely challenge to the cost cap system…

I do wonder what the Honda board will make of this. I can see Merc being overly careful as the DAG board is supposed to be hyper sensitive about reputational damage.

[Unc1eM0nty]

Red Bull say they submitted their books and it was under the cost-cap. So something happened during the review process that converted their numbers into being above the cost cap. You do agree to this point, do you not?
So what forces and pressures, method of accounting, or calculation of spend, would have resulted in this discrepancy?

This is their official line:

"Our 2021 submission was below the cost cap limit, so we need to carefully review the FIA's findings as our belief remains that the relevant costs are under the 2021 cost cap amount."

What Redbull "belive" and what the FIA find to be "just and proper" are two differnt things.