2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[Vanja #66]

Reading the excuses made up by the public, in this thread and elsewhere, is pure gold

[dxpetrov]

I think everyone here gives too much credit to FIA and her competence, which has been proven say the least sketchy times over times.
We should understand that FIA did not dive into the numbers themselves (they didn't check if the money said to be spent for a certain thing was actually spent there)
If that's the case, this means that all they did was make a decision if certain funds spendings are part of the cost cap or not, added it up, and posted the results.
And yes this pretty much says that if a team hid their real expenses somewhere where cost cap is not enforced there is no way of knowing it.
Mark these words there won't be any substantial penalty over this shitshow. Max. a nominal financial penalty, if at all.

[KeiKo403]

I wonder if the regulation read “any expense incurred for catering purposes should be included in the cost cap budget” we already know Red Bull doesn’t think that Any means All.

[codetower]

I think everyone here gives too much credit to FIA and her competence, which has been proven say the least sketchy times over times.
We should understand that FIA did not dive into the numbers themselves (they didn't check if the money said to be spent for a certain thing was actually spent there)
If that's the case, this means that all they did was make a decision if certain funds spendings are part of the cost cap or not, added it up, and posted the results.
And yes this pretty much says that if a team hid their real expenses somewhere where cost cap is not enforced there is no way of knowing it.
Mark these words there won't be any substantial penalty over this shitshow. Max. a nominal financial penalty, if at all.

I believe very little will come of this as well, but not because of incompetence of the FIA. I believe they are very competent, but after the backlash they received last year, and the firing of the race director, they will try everything to avoid changing an outcome of a race or season. They already knew their decision before Japan. Might just be coincidence that they interpreted the points rules to allow RB the maximum allowable points. QUICKLY hit Leclerc with the 5 second penalty to ensure RB get the 1-2 (and although I don't disagree that the 5 second penalty was justified, it could have easily gone the other way... but it's a discussion for another thread). That outcome just makes the penalty easier to manage.

The FIA didn't just go in, scan some documents and say "Eh, there should be an extra 3 mil in here for excess flow-vis used". EVERY team pushes the limits on every aspect. RB just happened to push it a little too far in this instance. They aren't the first, wont be the last. But I will be extremely surprised if the penalty ends up changing anything from last year, or this year. Maybe slow em down for the next year or two, but the damage has been done. They've got the last two WDC's and another soon to be WCC to their name.

[LM10]

Yeah, it’s those grey areas that are going to be discussed at great length in the months to come.

RB said this isn’t covered, FIA says it does with no reference to it in the rules.

It’s going to be a long drawn out process, and we will probably have to wait until the ABA report comes out to know where the issue is exactly. Unless RB take the FIA’s ‘offer’ of a fine and we will hear no more about it.

Seems like 9 other teams managed to interpret the rules the correct way. I assume RedBull as well knew what the correct way was.

[fourmula1]

If sporting integrity is #1 there will be very substantial penalties, but Formula 1 is a business and a game. The teams want to protect their brand and image, the FIA (individuals in charge) want the same. Didn't Ferrari just cheat a few years ago? They struck a confidential deal with FIA? Even if RB's "penalty" is to invest 250m into FIA programs and safety research they will take that deal every year if it means winning the championship.

I'm accepting this is all just a game/sport and there is no real obligation to objective sporting integrity so to speak. All I want is fair, clean, close racing on track. Replace the stewards with gravel traps and sensors.

[cundi]

[motobaleno]

If sporting integrity is #1 there will be very substantial penalties, but Formula 1 is a business and a game. The teams want to protect their brand and image, the FIA (individuals in charge) want the same. Didn't Ferrari just cheat a few years ago? They struck a confidential deal with FIA? Even if RB's "penalty" is to invest 250m into FIA programs and safety research they will take that deal every year if it means winning the championship.

I'm accepting this is all just a game/sport and there is no real obligation to objective sporting integrity so to speak. All I want is fair, clean, close racing on track. Replace the stewards with gravel traps and sensors.

When ferrari "cheated" the same year tha car changed from straight line god to straight line dog and for the subsequent two years was nowhere in term of winnig capability...
Whatever penalty RB will be given if it will preserve the ability to win wil be inevitably considered a joke.
the WHOLE question is here indeed: for the sport to mantain a minimum credit you can either be soft with punishments or hard: depending from the situation both could be accetable but you can NEVER create a situation where someone who cheated goes away with 2 championships untouched
If you cheated you can be forgiven but FOR SURE you cannot win at the same time

[codetower]

If sporting integrity is #1 there will be very substantial penalties, but Formula 1 is a business and a game. The teams want to protect their brand and image, the FIA (individuals in charge) want the same. Didn't Ferrari just cheat a few years ago? They struck a confidential deal with FIA? Even if RB's "penalty" is to invest 250m into FIA programs and safety research they will take that deal every year if it means winning the championship.

I'm accepting this is all just a game/sport and there is no real obligation to objective sporting integrity so to speak. All I want is fair, clean, close racing on track. Replace the stewards with gravel traps and sensors.

When ferrari "cheated" the same year tha car changed from straight line god to straight line dog and for the subsequent two years was nowhere in term of winnig capability...
Whatever penalty RB will be given if it will preserve the ability to win wil be inevitably considered a joke.
the WHOLE question is here indeed: for the sport to mantain a minimum credit you can either be soft with punishments or hard: depending from the situation both could be accetable but you can NEVER create a situation where someone who cheated goes away with 2 championships untouched
If you cheated you can be forgiven but FOR SURE you cannot win at the same time

To be fair, it's not known if Ferrari "cheated" or was merely exploiting a loop-hole in the regs. And whether it was not disclosed because of exposure of intellectual property regarding their engine, or if it was simply part of the agreement (We'll keep clean for the next 3 years, and we keep this locked down). But either way, they accepted and basically got screwed for 2+ years because of this, and had to start over.

This is why I'm interested in the outcome. Whether RB "cheated" or simply exploited a loop-hole, the FIA's handling of it will set a precedent for all teams moving forward. It will either be more tightly controlled moving forward, or become a reckless show to see who can get away with what in the future.

[selvam_e2002]

To all,
if RB get only penalty( as some $$$), then will all other team follow RB method to get car developed and pay the penalty after an year?

[sunny1304r]

How about RB will struck a deal and help FIA with cost cap measures like Ferrari did at 2019 ?

[Wil992]

To all,
if RB get only penalty( as some $$$), then will all other team follow RB method to get car developed and pay the penalty after an year?

Yep, why would you not if can afford it. Pay the fine, take the championships.
That’s the reason it has to be a meaningful/proportionate penalty. Otherwise it just becomes an unofficial cost cap that’s a bit higher than the official one.

[mendis]

To all,
if RB get only penalty( as some $$$), then will all other team follow RB method to get car developed and pay the penalty after an year?

Oh absolutely yes. Unless FIA decides to update the regulations further and close any the ambiguous areas and then tightens up the penalties. Just like they did with multiple fuel flow sensors after knowing one team cheated the single fuel flow sensor. FIA is never proactive, but they do react well once they understand the matter. Let's see if they can do that here too.

[ringo]

Reading the excuses made up by the public, in this thread and elsewhere, is pure gold

Exactly!
The FIA have retained some of the most competent set of finance people for this.
You would think a bunch of highschool students were doing the audit based on some of the excuses here.
The breach is very clear cut. In the tax world you have avoiding and evasion.
What redbull likely did is "evade" and were caught. It's not a matter of missunderstanding. More than likely attempts were made to classify car related expenses as something else like fleet maintenance and it was uncovered.
The focus should shift to how can the FIA maintain the promise of being equitable.

Mercedes suffered like other teams to cut staff and not bring upgrades to obey the rules...

Likewise ferrari..

So are they to accept that redbull get a fine but still keep their championship won by an unfair advantage?

Whatever is done, must be equitable. It cannot be that others had their hands tied behind their backs in 2021 and 2022 and the one who overspent gets a fine or reprimand.

I think disqualification from both championships in 2021 is fair but harsh. Similar to track and field or any other competitive and equitable sport.
They and anyone else definitely wont try evading again if they realize the FIA are not playing around. The budget cap is very key to saving the sport. Without it we will be in for many more boring championships.

[DChemTech]

Reading the excuses made up by the public, in this thread and elsewhere, is pure gold

Exactly!
The FIA have retained some of the most competent set of finance people for this.
You would think a bunch of highschool students were doing the audit based on some of the excuses here.
The breach is very clear cut. In the tax world you have avoiding and evasion.
What redbull likely did is "evade" and were caught. It's not a matter of missunderstanding. More than likely attempts were made to classify car related expenses as something else like fleet maintenance and it was uncovered.
The focus should shift to how can the FIA maintain the promise of being equitable.

Mercedes suffered like other teams to cut staff and not bring upgrades to obey the rules...

Likewise ferrari..

So are they to accept that redbull get a fine but still keep their championship won by an unfair advantage?

Whatever is done, must be equitable. It cannot be that others had their hands tied behind their backs in 2021 and 2022 and the one who overspent gets a fine or reprimand.

I think disqualification from both championships in 2021 is fair but harsh. Similar to track and field or any other competitive and equitable sport.
They and anyone else definitely wont try evading again if they realize the FIA are not playing around. The budget cap is very key to saving the sport. Without it we will be in for many more boring championships.

How can you state definitively that the breach is clear cut, considering nothing regarding the nature of the breach, the amount of the breach, and the points of disagreement between RB and the FIA has been communicated?

Such claims of guilt are just as lamentable as claims as definitive innocence, or making making definitive excuses for the speculated grounds of the breach. As long as nothing is brought forward, it is all just speculation.
The only thing that is certain is that most were expecting clarity today, and the FIA failed to deliver that.