2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[Just_a_fan]

I seem to recall some while back (so may not be so now) that AN was 'Employer by the Group' not by Red Bull F1.
Could this be a part of the discrepancy? FIA want to include hit total expense and RBR saying 'No, only this bit is ours)

They do that with director's expenses in the official company accounts, too. Most of the director salary bill is paid from somewhere else.

In terms of Newey, unless RBR can show what proportion of his time is used in various places / projects, then the FIA will say "hey, he's your CTO so he must be using most of his time with you". Which seems reasonable.

[Just_a_fan]

What about James Allison? Is he still in Mercedes 2021 cost-cap even though he stepped back in July 2021?

Unlike Red Bull, Mercedes have been given a clean bill of health.

You can try all the whataboutism you like, try to make up stuff about Mercedes, etc., but the fact is that only one team is in breach of the cap and that is Red Bull.

Allison revealed he thought he would have to leave the Mercedes entirely having reached his decision to step away as technical director, only for team boss Toto Wolff to come up with a new role for him.

“When I felt that this was the right thing for me and the best thing for the team to step away, I very much thought that I would be stepping away to my sofa to cheer the team from the sidelines as a punter,” he explained.

“I didn’t imagine that there would be a space for me in the team, having relinquished this brilliant job. Happily, Toto saw it a little differently. And between us we worked on the manner in which I could contribute to the team.”

It's a legitimate question. Just because Mercedes hasn't been "caught" doesn't mean something behind the scenes is happening.

It's just another lame attempt to deflect from Red Bull's apparent inability to meet the budget cap. The FIA has said Mercedes are in compliance with the budget cap requirements.

[ispano6]

Unlike Red Bull, Mercedes have been given a clean bill of health.

You can try all the whataboutism you like, try to make up stuff about Mercedes, etc., but the fact is that only one team is in breach of the cap and that is Red Bull.

Allison revealed he thought he would have to leave the Mercedes entirely having reached his decision to step away as technical director, only for team boss Toto Wolff to come up with a new role for him.

“When I felt that this was the right thing for me and the best thing for the team to step away, I very much thought that I would be stepping away to my sofa to cheer the team from the sidelines as a punter,” he explained.

“I didn’t imagine that there would be a space for me in the team, having relinquished this brilliant job. Happily, Toto saw it a little differently. And between us we worked on the manner in which I could contribute to the team.”

It's a legitimate question. Just because Mercedes hasn't been "caught" doesn't mean something behind the scenes is happening.

It's just another lame attempt to deflect from Red Bull's apparent inability to meet the budget cap. The FIA has said Mercedes are in compliance with the budget cap requirements.

Oh, I thought we were talking about "consultants". He was present at 2022 races and was quoted about upgrades that would be coming to the W13. I thought he was no longer part of the team but he seems to have been very much involved.

[les arcs]

I don’t know what he’s on now, but I know what he started on when he joined, beyond massive…

I wonder what Mr Neweys salary is then......

“Enough”, I would imagine…

[214270]

What about James Allison? Is he still in Mercedes 2021 cost-cap even though he stepped back in July 2021?

Unlike Red Bull, Mercedes have been given a clean bill of health.

You can try all the whataboutism you like, try to make up stuff about Mercedes, etc., but the fact is that only one team is in breach of the cap and that is Red Bull.

Allison revealed he thought he would have to leave the Mercedes entirely having reached his decision to step away as technical director, only for team boss Toto Wolff to come up with a new role for him.

“When I felt that this was the right thing for me and the best thing for the team to step away, I very much thought that I would be stepping away to my sofa to cheer the team from the sidelines as a punter,” he explained.

“I didn’t imagine that there would be a space for me in the team, having relinquished this brilliant job. Happily, Toto saw it a little differently. And between us we worked on the manner in which I could contribute to the team.”

It's a legitimate question. Just because Mercedes hasn't been "caught" doesn't mean something behind the scenes is happening.

If at all relevant, it’ll be in next years submission - not this years.

[Stu]

I seem to recall some while back (so may not be so now) that AN was 'Employer by the Group' not by Red Bull F1.
Could this be a part of the discrepancy? FIA want to include hit total expense and RBR saying 'No, only this bit is ours)

They do that with director's expenses in the official company accounts, too. Most of the director salary bill is paid from somewhere else.

In terms of Newey, unless RBR can show what proportion of his time is used in various places / projects, then the FIA will say "hey, he's your CTO so he must be using most of his time with you". Which seems reasonable.

Seems a weird choice though, it makes me wonder who their three nominated salary exclusions are from the cost cap?

Horner, presumably, would be one.
Marco is employed by RedBull (as opposed to RedBull F1 Team).

It could be that the guy who went to AM had his salary whilst on gardening leave included (his salary would be included up to that point, if he wasn’t one of the three).

I can think of many ways that it would be possible to inadvertently breach the cap, and it would be really easy to smash it deliberately.

Until the details are made public the tribal nature of fandom will lead people down different paths and into argument & conflict.

[ispano6]

Unlike Red Bull, Mercedes have been given a clean bill of health.

You can try all the whataboutism you like, try to make up stuff about Mercedes, etc., but the fact is that only one team is in breach of the cap and that is Red Bull.

Allison revealed he thought he would have to leave the Mercedes entirely having reached his decision to step away as technical director, only for team boss Toto Wolff to come up with a new role for him.

“When I felt that this was the right thing for me and the best thing for the team to step away, I very much thought that I would be stepping away to my sofa to cheer the team from the sidelines as a punter,” he explained.

“I didn’t imagine that there would be a space for me in the team, having relinquished this brilliant job. Happily, Toto saw it a little differently. And between us we worked on the manner in which I could contribute to the team.”

It's a legitimate question. Just because Mercedes hasn't been "caught" doesn't mean something behind the scenes is happening.

If at all relevant, it’ll be in next years submission.

If Allison stepped back in July 2021, would the salary for the rest of the season not have counted toward the cap? Take Newey for instance, he wasn't the Chief Aerodynamicist for the RB16b right? I thought Dan Fallows was? Fallows was announced in June of 2021 as moving to Aston Martin and was subsequently put on gardening leave. Is a staff salary that has been placed on gardening-leave still part of the remaining season's cost cap? What I want to know is how Red Bull's submission of being below the 2021 cost cap as they had interpreted it was in breach according to FIA's interpretation? Are staff like Allison and Fallows who are "moved out of the capacity of contributing to the F1 team directly" outside of the cost cap calculation?

[ispano6]

Seems a weird choice though, it makes me wonder who their three nominated salary exclusions are from the cost cap?

Horner, presumably, would be one.
Marco is employed by RedBull (as opposed to RedBull F1 Team).

It could be that the guy who went to AM had his salary whilst on gardening leave included (his salary would be included up to that point, if he wasn’t one of the three).

I can think of many ways that it would be possible to inadvertently breach the cap, and it would be really easy to smash it deliberately.

You beat me to it.
Also as a comparison Toto Wolff's 2021 salary was $26million. Christian Horner's salary was $12million.

[Hoffman900]

It's a legitimate question. Just because Mercedes hasn't been "caught" doesn't mean something behind the scenes is happening.

If at all relevant, it’ll be in next years submission.

If Allison stepped back in July 2021, would the salary for the rest of the season not have counted toward the cap? Take Newey for instance, he wasn't the Chief Aerodynamicist for the RB16b right? I thought Dan Fallows was? Fallows was announced in June of 2021 as moving to Aston Martin and was subsequently put on gardening leave. Is a staff salary that has been placed on gardening-leave still part of the remaining season's cost cap? What I want to know is how Red Bull's submission of being below the 2021 cost cap as they had interpreted it was in breach according to FIA's interpretation? Are staff like Allison and Fallows who are "moved out of the capacity of contributing to the F1 team directly" outside of the cost cap calculation?

It should. That’s how it’s handled in American sports. It’s called “dead cap space”. If the teams don’t want to get a hit with dead cap space, then buy them out or don’t give them crazy gardening leaves.

If you don’t want the guy to go to a new team, or at least restrict his competitiveness there by extending his time home, then that’s on you to take the hit.

If you move them outside and they don’t work on the car, or they do on a consulting basis, that’s fine too, it’s per hour. That said, I bet Newey’s hours are wayyy more than Allison’s. Merc has many pots in the fire now.

Also, guys, as we have said again and again, this stuff plays out in engineering, law, accounting, IT, consulting firms everyday and a lot of us are seeing the same stuff we see being played in F1 played there. The fact that RB thought they could get away with some of these games is silly. These aren’t new tricks.

[ispano6]

If at all relevant, it’ll be in next years submission.

If Allison stepped back in July 2021, would the salary for the rest of the season not have counted toward the cap? Take Newey for instance, he wasn't the Chief Aerodynamicist for the RB16b right? I thought Dan Fallows was? Fallows was announced in June of 2021 as moving to Aston Martin and was subsequently put on gardening leave. Is a staff salary that has been placed on gardening-leave still part of the remaining season's cost cap? What I want to know is how Red Bull's submission of being below the 2021 cost cap as they had interpreted it was in breach according to FIA's interpretation? Are staff like Allison and Fallows who are "moved out of the capacity of contributing to the F1 team directly" outside of the cost cap calculation?

It should. That’s how it’s handled in American sports. It’s called “dead cap space”. If the teams don’t want to get a hit with dead cap space, then buy them out or don’t give them crazy gardening leaves.

If you don’t want the guy to go to a new team, or at least restrict his competitiveness there by extending his time home, then that’s on you to take the hit.

But he's being paid for work that doesn't add performance to the car.

[Hoffman900]

If Allison stepped back in July 2021, would the salary for the rest of the season not have counted toward the cap? Take Newey for instance, he wasn't the Chief Aerodynamicist for the RB16b right? I thought Dan Fallows was? Fallows was announced in June of 2021 as moving to Aston Martin and was subsequently put on gardening leave. Is a staff salary that has been placed on gardening-leave still part of the remaining season's cost cap? What I want to know is how Red Bull's submission of being below the 2021 cost cap as they had interpreted it was in breach according to FIA's interpretation? Are staff like Allison and Fallows who are "moved out of the capacity of contributing to the F1 team directly" outside of the cost cap calculation?

It should. That’s how it’s handled in American sports. It’s called “dead cap space”. If the teams don’t want to get a hit with dead cap space, then buy them out or don’t give them crazy gardening leaves.

If you don’t want the guy to go to a new team, or at least restrict his competitiveness there by extending his time home, then that’s on you to take the hit.

But he's being paid for work that doesn't add performance to the car.

You saw his billable invoices? You’re out of your depth, chief.

[DChemTech]

It should. That’s how it’s handled in American sports. It’s called “dead cap space”. If the teams don’t want to get a hit with dead cap space, then buy them out or don’t give them crazy gardening leaves.

If you don’t want the guy to go to a new team, or at least restrict his competitiveness there by extending his time home, then that’s on you to take the hit.

But he's being paid for work that doesn't add performance to the car.

You saw his billable invoices? You’re out of your depth, chief.

Just remember, noone saw any invoices or concrete numbers, we're all out of our depth and in the dark.

[chrisc90]

The lollipop comic strip is absolute golden.


Well, it appears the latest speculation is in regard to how wages are distributed and who is/isnt part of the cost. Its going to be a very lengthy discussion between the FIA and Red Bull.

All im going to suggest is that Red Bull are usually pretty damn good at reading the rule book's wording and interpretations. I mean just look at last year. 'Any does not mean all', Id dare suggest that there are some VERY VERY knowledgeable people reading and interpreting that rule book and any 'loop holes' that may be present. (not using that as a defence against them, but we have seen they are VERY good at doing so)

[morefirejules08]

The lollipop comic strip is absolute golden.


Well, it appears the latest speculation is in regard to how wages are distributed and who is/isnt part of the cost. Its going to be a very lengthy discussion between the FIA and Red Bull.

All im going to suggest is that Red Bull are usually pretty damn good at reading the rule book's wording and interpretations. I mean just look at last year. 'Any does not mean all', Id dare suggest that there are some VERY VERY knowledgeable people reading and interpreting that rule book and any 'loop holes' that may be present. (not using that as a defence against them, but we have seen they are VERY good at doing so)

Just to be clear, Redbull “argued” that any does not mean all but the stewards decision didn’t mention that argument in their decision, only that Masi had overriding authority regarding use of the SC and article 14.3 overrode 14.2.
So it would appear their interpretation of “any does not mean all” held no sway with the stewards.

[dans79]

If Allison stepped back in July 2021, would the salary for the rest of the season not have counted toward the cap? Take Newey for instance, he wasn't the Chief Aerodynamicist for the RB16b right? I thought Dan Fallows was? Fallows was announced in June of 2021 as moving to Aston Martin and was subsequently put on gardening leave. Is a staff salary that has been placed on gardening-leave still part of the remaining season's cost cap? What I want to know is how Red Bull's submission of being below the 2021 cost cap as they had interpreted it was in breach according to FIA's interpretation? Are staff like Allison and Fallows who are "moved out of the capacity of contributing to the F1 team directly" outside of the cost cap calculation?

It should. That’s how it’s handled in American sports. It’s called “dead cap space”. If the teams don’t want to get a hit with dead cap space, then buy them out or don’t give them crazy gardening leaves.

If you don’t want the guy to go to a new team, or at least restrict his competitiveness there by extending his time home, then that’s on you to take the hit.

But he's being paid for work that doesn't add performance to the car.

if he is doing any kind of design/development/management/mentoring, he is is benefiting the company.

It doesn't matter if it's direct, indirect, work that effects the near future, or work that effects the company 5 years down the rode.