2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[organic]

Max has also convincingly beaten Leclerc to F1 from the junior series (where he beat him convincingly as well) they are the exact same age. To me that too is stuff of legends. Nobody ever did that before him. You can't be compared to others when your job is not yet done. But it has started and everything so far is the stuff of legends.

Max never raced against Leclerc in cars in junior formulae, did he? Max only did one season in F3 back in 2014 and he came third. Ocon won that year. S'funny how Ocon doesn't figure on many people's radar. He's doing a decent job this year against Fernando, after all.

I think they're talking about Karting, where they did constantly race against one another and where Max did dominate him

[Just_a_fan]

Max has also convincingly beaten Leclerc to F1 from the junior series (where he beat him convincingly as well) they are the exact same age. To me that too is stuff of legends. Nobody ever did that before him. You can't be compared to others when your job is not yet done. But it has started and everything so far is the stuff of legends.

Max never raced against Leclerc in cars in junior formulae, did he? Max only did one season in F3 back in 2014 and he came third. Ocon won that year. S'funny how Ocon doesn't figure on many people's radar. He's doing a decent job this year against Fernando, after all.

I think they're talking about Karting, where they did constantly race against one another and where Max did dominate him

Yes, although I wouldn't call karting a junior series in terms of comparing racing careers. Karts, then junior formulae, then F1. in my view, anyway.

[organic]

Max never raced against Leclerc in cars in junior formulae, did he? Max only did one season in F3 back in 2014 and he came third. Ocon won that year. S'funny how Ocon doesn't figure on many people's radar. He's doing a decent job this year against Fernando, after all.

I think they're talking about Karting, where they did constantly race against one another and where Max did dominate him

Yes, although I wouldn't call karting a junior series in terms of comparing racing careers. Karts, then junior formulae, then F1. in my view, anyway.

I have the same opinion

[Gillian]

Max has also convincingly beaten Leclerc to F1 from the junior series (where he beat him convincingly as well) they are the exact same age. To me that too is stuff of legends. Nobody ever did that before him. You can't be compared to others when your job is not yet done. But it has started and everything so far is the stuff of legends.

Max never raced against Leclerc in cars in junior formulae, did he? Max only did one season in F3 back in 2014 and he came third. Ocon won that year. S'funny how Ocon doesn't figure on many people's radar. He's doing a decent job this year against Fernando, after all.

Ocon 'won' in a superior car. Ocon has at no point in his career displayed any kind of talent that Verstappen has (or Leclerc, Hamilton, etc).

What Verstappen did in karting is unprecedented. No one has come close.

Verstappen made silly mistakes but don't forget he barely had any mileage in single seaters when he came to F1 (as a teenager!).

There's a lot that can be said but Verstappen is undeniably one of the greatest racers F1 has seen. Right up there with Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton. Perfect? Of course not,he's human. Neither where those other greats.

Now wether you like the guys racing style, personality etc... That's a whole differe t subject.

[Wouter]

Max his karting results.

" 21 races ongeslagen" means 21 races undefeated/unbeaten.
"18 races, 16 x winst" means he won 16 out of 18 races.
"kampioenschap" means championship.

[AR3-GP]

S'funny how Ocon doesn't figure on many people's radar. He's doing a decent job this year against Fernando, after all.

He was overlooked by Toto Wolff for a seat at Mercedes and when at risk of losing his seat in 2017, he wasn't exactly scooped up by Marko either or promoted to replace Bottas.

Doesn't that say it all about what the paddock thinks? Especially someone of such stature and acuity as Wolff.

Contrast that to Verstappen who Toto Wolff tried to get for Mercedes, but was eventually signed by Marko when he probably didn't even have a road license!

[Sieper]

Max only drove carts, did the Ferrari winter series (just a fun series with a mix of journalists, talents and others) then straight into F3 (midrange team with subpar engine) and then F1. He also did (F1) tests and V8 single seater and impressed everywhere, but he didn’t even do the traditional junior series traject, straight from karts to F3 to F1. Beating Sainz by a wide margin in his first year. All extraordinary.

[Just_a_fan]

Max his karting results.

" 21 races ongeslagen" means 21 races undefeated/unbeaten.
"18 races, 16 x winst" means he won 16 out of 18 races.
"kampioenschap" means championship.

https://i.postimg.cc/RZ09KGnm/Kartresultaten.gif

Oh, his karting record is amazing, I'm not saying otherwise. Quite an extraordinary performance.

[Kingshark]

I’ve watched every F1 season in the last 20 years and Verstappen’s 2022 season has been easily as impressive as any other.

Unbelievable dominance with a car that, from Bahrain to Hungary, arguably wasn’t even the fastest car.

He’s also firmly established himself as the best wet-weather driver on the grid and by far the most consistent driver.

Just another level really.

[Incognito]

There's a lot that can be said but Verstappen is undeniably one of the greatest racers F1 has seen. Right up there with Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton. Perfect? Of course not,he's human. Neither where those other greats.

What are his achievements that put him in the same bracket as the greatest racers F1 has seen? Clark, Surtees, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Hamilton, etc?

He lost to Ricciardo over multiple seasons. He hasn't had a single team mate of note since. He won his first championship, by a hair, under 'unusual' circumstances, during a year when RBR broke the cost cap, against an old man driving perhaps the worst season of his career up until that point. He's won this year, but in a car that has won almost every race that both drivers didn't DNF (whilst, given the overlapping nature of F1, possibly benefiting from last year's illegality).

His Karting record seems to be exceptional (not my area of knowledge). He's undeniably very good in an F1 car. Probably the best driver in F1 at the moment and I expect to remain so. But his only competition is an old man in the twilight of his career in a car a second off the pace. In ten years, I may very well find myself saying that I'm lucky to have been able to watch Verstappen race! Or he might simply be the best driver in the social media age where everything and everyone is the GOAT. I hope it will be the former, but he's got a way to go yet.

To be honest, the best thing for him might be to find a proper rival. Hamilton broke through against Alonso and Vettel and has had 3 WDC in the same car as him. Alonso wrestled the title from Schumacher and an utterly dominant Ferrari. Schumacher had Hakkinnen in a Newey car, Senna had Prost in the same iconic Honda-powered car. Another great in the same era pushes them both on to even greater feats (iron sharpens iron) and provides a decent metric. Does anyone think Leclerc and Russel are the next Prost to Verstappen's Senna?

[DChemTech]

There's a lot that can be said but Verstappen is undeniably one of the greatest racers F1 has seen. Right up there with Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton. Perfect? Of course not,he's human. Neither where those other greats.

What are his achievements that put him in the same bracket as the greatest racers F1 has seen? Clark, Surtees, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Hamilton, etc?

He lost to Ricciardo over multiple seasons. He hasn't had a single team mate of note since. He won his first championship, by a hair, under 'unusual' circumstances, during a year when RBR broke the cost cap, against an old man driving perhaps the worst season of his career up until that point. He's won this year, but in a car that has won almost every race that both drivers didn't DNF (whilst, given the overlapping nature of F1, possibly benefiting from last year's illegality).

His Karting record seems to be exceptional (not my area of knowledge). He's undeniably very good in an F1 car. Probably the best driver in F1 at the moment and I expect to remain so. But his only competition is an old man in the twilight of his career in a car a second off the pace. In ten years, I may very well find myself saying that I'm lucky to have been able to watch Verstappen race! Or he might simply be the best driver in the social media age where everything and everyone is the GOAT. I hope it will be the former, but he's got a way to go yet.

To be honest, the best thing for him might be to find a proper rival. Hamilton broke through against Alonso and Vettel and has had 3 WDC in the same car as him. Alonso wrestled the title from Schumacher and an utterly dominant Ferrari. Schumacher had Hakkinnen in a Newey car, Senna had Prost in the same iconic Honda-powered car. Another great in the same era pushes them both on to even greater feats (iron sharpens iron) and provides a decent metric. Does anyone think Leclerc and Russel are the next Prost to Verstappen's Senna?

So, when Alonso 'wrestled the title away' from a 37 year old Schumacher, it's an epic feat. When Verstappen manages the same from a 36 year old Hamilton (who was driving just fine last year and had a better car for much of the season), it is 'against an old man driving perhaps the worst season of his career up until that point'.
When Verstappen demolishes the competition in 2022 despite not having the best car in the first half of the season, it's 'because the competition is off the pace/because he's in a car that's won almost every race' (which was more due to Ferrari failing than due to the inherent pace of the RB), but Hamilton is great despite winning the majority of his titles in a rocketship that most of the time won pretty much all races with tens of seconds to spare. (note: I don't think this takes away from Hamilton's performance, but you bring up the point with respect to Verstappen so it seems fair to consider it for the others, too).
Nothing about Hamilton being beaten by Rosberg once, but Verstappen being slightly beaten by Ricciardo initially (who himself beat a 4x WDC when coming in to the team) is a deal breaker?

Sorry, but this does not seem to be a comparison that's completely unbiased.

I am not in favor of calling Max a legend at this point. Legends can only be judged in hindsight, he is in too early a stage of his career to make conclusive judgements. But the judgement you make so far is not a fair evaluation of his achievements so far, nor does calling Hamilton past his prime and depreciating his performance last year to make Max look worse do justice to Hamilton.

[mendis]

This thread is transending down into a big cess pool of driver d*** comparison sh**. It started with a basic question by a poster asking if there are parallels of Max's 2 titles to Michael's 2 titles at Benetton. It would be wise to open another thread to have that oft beaten discussion. Mods, your intervention would help.

[Just_a_fan]

Alonso wrestled the title from Schumacher and an utterly dominant Ferrari.

In fairness, the rules were changed in a way that hampered Ferrari - they weren't allowed to change tyres during the race and the Ferrari/Bridgestone set up had been developed on the basis of running the races as a series of short sprints. They tyres were built for that. SO when the rules changed, Bridgestone struggled. Michelin got the better of the situation and that really helped Alonso.

Alonso drove brilliantly to take back to back titles, but the Ferrari was hamstrung to a degree by the rule change.

There is an echo of that in last year where the rules were changed (this time ostensibly to help the tyre maker, ironically) and that change appears to have hampered Mercedes. Max then took advantage of that as Alonso had done years ago.

If the W12 had been a straight development of the W11, with no aero rule changes at all, it's unlikely that the RB16B would have been good enough to allow Max to fight for the title.

[CMSMJ1]

This thread is transending down into a big cess pool of driver d*** comparison sh**. It started with a basic question by a poster asking if there are parallels of Max's 2 titles to Michael's 2 titles at Benetton. It would be wise to open another thread to have that oft beaten discussion. Mods, your intervention would help.

To be fair - I was reading through the rpevious posts and was thinking we've veered way off the beaten track here.

Can we return the 2022 Reb Bull Team discussion please guys(and gals)

Happy to lift and shift the previous posts into another thread if someone wanted to continue this conversation?

[Wouter]

Max and David Coulthard are in Imola today. ViaPlay is also there for an interview.