2021 Cost Cap Rumours and Speculation

[Just_a_fan]

There's no such thing exploitation of loopholes. There's inadequately written rules and clever people that make use of the space those rules provide

That's basically the definition of exploiting loopholes.

[mendis]

There's no such thing exploitation of loopholes. There's inadequately written rules and clever people that make use of the space those rules provide

That's basically the definition of exploiting loopholes.

Let's call it, "pushing the envelope" to respect sensibilities, though we mean "cheating".

[Just_a_fan]

How and where do you draw the line in the sand though to what gains an advantage.

You could look at AM’s armchair rear wing, perfectly allowed within the rules, and just add some performance to the car otherwise they wouldn’t have continued.

I mean there are other examples where teams push the aero rules to gain a advantage

You can argue the Mercedes aero concept is a loophole in the regs, if that design was 1 second quicker than anyone else, what would be the basis of people judgement.

AM's rear wing and Mercedes's design both follow the regulations as they are written. That's why some of the details are a bit ungainly - the nasty flat face of the front of the armchair wing, for example, and Merc's odd-looking wing mirror support wing thing. If they hadn't followed the letter of the regulations, they would be much more nicely detailed.

[Shakeman]

If it were a few hundred thousand, I would've thought Red Bull would come out and say to end speculation. The silence is rather deafening.

Last week, I mentioned the sudden delay of the cost cap certificate distribution to be suspect especially how last minute it was. It was as if the rumors of a team going over was true and that there were behind-the-scenes negotiations going on.

Now I am thinking this too. If the breach was small, the FIA would have spoken up already. It has to be substantial enough for them to require all this time to make any sort of move.

It could just as well be the other way around. Perhaps there is a minor breach, and the FIA/team were still discussing on whether it was actually a breach at all. Then the whole affair got leaked, which forced a rushed statement blowing things out of proportions. As long as there is no clarification provided on what happened, we do not know.

Where should your crate of Red Bull be delivered this Xmas?

[Just_a_fan]

There's no such thing exploitation of loopholes. There's inadequately written rules and clever people that make use of the space those rules provide

That's basically the definition of exploiting loopholes.

Let's call it, "pushing the envelope" to respect sensibilities, though we mean "cheating".

No, there's a real difference between exploiting a loophole and cheating.

The T-wing of former cars, for example, was a classic loophole. There was a bit of space that the rules didn't cover correctly and that allowed a wing to be place there entirely legally. That's a loophole.

If a team had run their cars 20kg underweight, that would have been cheating because it would have been doing something specifically outlawed by the regulations.

In terms of finances, there is a difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Tax avoidance is using the rules as they are written to minimise your tax liability. It's entirely legal albeit that for many people it's seen as being immoral. Tax evasion is deliberately acting to hide your liability from the tax authorities and it's illegal. One is using loopholes and is legal. The other is "cheating the tax man" and is illegal.

With the FIA budget cap, all of the teams will try to do the equivalent of tax avoidance. Currently, the FIA's auditors have said that Red Bull have gone too far and stepped in to the equivalent of tax evasion.

[DChemTech]

Last week, I mentioned the sudden delay of the cost cap certificate distribution to be suspect especially how last minute it was. It was as if the rumors of a team going over was true and that there were behind-the-scenes negotiations going on.

Now I am thinking this too. If the breach was small, the FIA would have spoken up already. It has to be substantial enough for them to require all this time to make any sort of move.

It could just as well be the other way around. Perhaps there is a minor breach, and the FIA/team were still discussing on whether it was actually a breach at all. Then the whole affair got leaked, which forced a rushed statement blowing things out of proportions. As long as there is no clarification provided on what happened, we do not know.

Where should your crate of Red Bull be delivered this Xmas?

Ah, yes, if one is willing to entertain other possibilities than the worst, one is immediately labeled partisan here.
What is so terrible about not being willing to jump to conclusions as long as no proper data has been provided?

[DChemTech]

There's no such thing exploitation of loopholes. There's inadequately written rules and clever people that make use of the space those rules provide

That's basically the definition of exploiting loopholes.

Exploitation has a connotation of illegality, hence I prefer to avoid that word. But alright, semantics, perhaps.

[Just_a_fan]

There's no such thing exploitation of loopholes. There's inadequately written rules and clever people that make use of the space those rules provide

That's basically the definition of exploiting loopholes.

Exploitation has a connotation of illegality, hence I prefer to avoid that word. But alright, semantics, perhaps.

It's not semantics. It's an important distinction between legal and illegal activity. Using a loophole is legal. Frowned upon by some, perhaps, but still legal.

[Shakeman]

It could just as well be the other way around. Perhaps there is a minor breach, and the FIA/team were still discussing on whether it was actually a breach at all. Then the whole affair got leaked, which forced a rushed statement blowing things out of proportions. As long as there is no clarification provided on what happened, we do not know.

Where should your crate of Red Bull be delivered this Xmas?

Ah, yes, if one is willing to entertain other possibilities than the worst, one is immediately labeled partisan here.
What is so terrible about not being willing to jump to conclusions as long as no proper data has been provided?

Has the FIA jumped to a conclusion?

[DChemTech]

Where should your crate of Red Bull be delivered this Xmas?

Ah, yes, if one is willing to entertain other possibilities than the worst, one is immediately labeled partisan here.
What is so terrible about not being willing to jump to conclusions as long as no proper data has been provided?

Has the FIA jumped to a conclusion?

I am not saying that. I am saying that the FIA has not provided us more information than that the gap is within 5%. And from that, a lot of people seem to jump to the conclusion that it must be close to 5%, you included, but also Brundle and other professional pundits.

You were making an argument that it must be 'substantial' by the delay of communication, I countered that one could just as well argue the breach could be 'unsubstantial' on the same grounds, and honestly, that we simply do not know - and cannot know - what is going on without further communication. And for some reason, you imply that is partisan.

[MV8]

Now the "ultimate engineering" is going to be tax avoiding engineering lmao

[chrisc90]

Tax side of it differs. Taxation will cover ALL Pabst a company, the FIA have a excluded list. Don’t confuse the 2

[bonjon1979]

If it were a few hundred thousand, I would've thought Red Bull would come out and say to end speculation. The silence is rather deafening.

Last week, I mentioned the sudden delay of the cost cap certificate distribution to be suspect especially how last minute it was. It was as if the rumors of a team going over was true and that there were behind-the-scenes negotiations going on.

Now I am thinking this too. If the breach was small, the FIA would have spoken up already. It has to be substantial enough for them to require all this time to make any sort of move.

It could just as well be the other way around. Perhaps there is a minor breach, and the FIA/team were still discussing on whether it was actually a breach at all. Then the whole affair got leaked, which forced a rushed statement blowing things out of proportions. As long as there is no clarification provided on what happened, we do not know.

They've been found guilty of a breach as per FIA statement. Red Bull are welcome to appeal this finding but it's disingenuous to suggest thier might not be a breach at all.

[DChemTech]

Last week, I mentioned the sudden delay of the cost cap certificate distribution to be suspect especially how last minute it was. It was as if the rumors of a team going over was true and that there were behind-the-scenes negotiations going on.

Now I am thinking this too. If the breach was small, the FIA would have spoken up already. It has to be substantial enough for them to require all this time to make any sort of move.

It could just as well be the other way around. Perhaps there is a minor breach, and the FIA/team were still discussing on whether it was actually a breach at all. Then the whole affair got leaked, which forced a rushed statement blowing things out of proportions. As long as there is no clarification provided on what happened, we do not know.

They've been found guilty of a breach as per FIA statement. Red Bull are welcome to appeal this finding but it's disingenuous to suggest thier might not be a breach at all.

Yeah, I am not really suggesting that, am I?

[e30ernest]

If it were a few hundred thousand, I would've thought Red Bull would come out and say to end speculation. The silence is rather deafening.

Last week, I mentioned the sudden delay of the cost cap certificate distribution to be suspect especially how last minute it was. It was as if the rumors of a team going over was true and that there were behind-the-scenes negotiations going on.

Now I am thinking this too. If the breach was small, the FIA would have spoken up already. It has to be substantial enough for them to require all this time to make any sort of move.

It could just as well be the other way around. Perhaps there is a minor breach, and the FIA/team were still discussing on whether it was actually a breach at all. Then the whole affair got leaked, which forced a rushed statement blowing things out of proportions. As long as there is no clarification provided on what happened, we do not know.

It's not a rushed statement given that it was even pushed back several days to buy time.

Besides, if it were really minor (inconsequential) I'm with RZS10, they'd have either taken the ABA (which would have been small) and issue a statement about it. That would have avoided this PR nightmare they and the FIA are in now.